[Jacob-list] lilac

[Linda]

Hello Fred,

I would love to see the question asked, researched, and answered and 
would happily participate in any study.

A few questions - is color DNA testing available for sheep? I haven't 
looked into it, but thought it was mentioned on the sheep color genetics 
list that it wasn't. I haven't kept up, so things may have changed or I 
might not be remembering it correctly.  If it is available, that would 
certainly give us a better starting point than personal flock 
observations. The varying "lilac" colors can be difficult to photograph 
accurately. A slight change in color balance can change a black to a 
blue to a chocolate. This does complicate sharing our flock observations.

When we look at our lilacs, we are seeing more than the color genetics. 
We are also seeing modifying factors such as sun bleaching, early 
graying, reactions to mineral intakes, etc, etc. The fleece reflects all 
these factors on top of the color.

This is an interesting topic and I hope it will be continued.

Linda

.


On 5/22/2012 3:57 PM, Jacobflock at aol.com wrote:

> Dear listers - The "lilac" color came up again several times from a 

> Jacob breeder who stopped in for a visit this past weekend.  The 

> breeder was looking for some guidance in identifying a lilac, an 

> explanation of the phenotype and why the phenotype among 'lilac' 

> owners had such diversity, lacked color precision and was largely 

> opinion based on personal flock observations.

> I perhaps added to the confusion by adding that the "lilac" color is 

> only recognized as a Jacob in North America; it is not recognized as 

> such in Great Britain and the Jacob Sheep Society, the original 

> 'breed' standard bearer.  If the Jacob is a British breed should its 

> genotype reflect the dominant black, recessive white roots.  The early 

> flock literature from Britain does not contain references to a 

> lilac color and yet in the 1980s the JSS opines it is to be avoided.  

> Is the lilac a dilution, a mutation, something more or less than a 

> simple recessive?

> The endogenous retrovirus genetic marker for the Jacob breed, 

> enJSRV-18, is absent in the Mediterraenean Muflon which is the origin 

> of other colored British breeds but supports an origin to breeds in 

> Africa and Southwest Asia where breeds are predominantly black and 

> white.  The Jaagseitke (pneumonia type) retrovirus (enJSRV) is 

> polymorphically (there are about 15 forms of it) inserted on various 

> chromosomes (Jacob is c11), singly or in combination, and can be used 

> to trace breed relationships.  It is based on this unique marker that 

> we know that the Jacob is not a "Viking" breed nor is it related other 

> British primitive and more modern breeds 

> (Kilda,Hebridean,Icelandic,Blackface,etc).  But this Jacob breed 

> marker has not been found in "lilacs"; only in black and whites.

> Several older listers may remember the US breeds genetic distance 

> tests done by Harvey Blackburn and his group about a decade ago; about 

> the same time the Dept of Ag study on Jacob breed genetic diversity 

> was done.  Here again the genetic distance study showed the "Jacob" is 

> an outlier breed and is unrelated to other US 'look alike' breeds.  

> Harvey's study did not look at black and white vs lilac.

> Should the question be (1) asked (2) researched and (3) answered?  

> Does anyone have any interest and the genetic resources to compare the 

> lilac with the black and white? what are corollary issues?  I think 

> Ingrid Painter and Jean Rosecrans asked this question 20 years ago.  I 

> asked this question on the list about five years ago and there was 

> little or no interest except for Carl who was looking for source 

> flocks.  Maybe the JSBA would find a definitive 

> answer for writing a 'lilac' standard for its members; else does a 

> 'lilac' color standard revert to the common denominator - something 

> other than black, e.g., blue, purple, brown, tan, mousy, grey, etc,

> Regards - Fred Horak

> In a message dated 5/4/2012 7:57:35 A.M. Central Daylight Time, 

> fourhornfarm at frontier.com writes:

>

>     I agree Lasell's ewe's color is totally different colors than

>     black or lilac. It is something I have never seen in any of

>     several lilacs I have had born here over the years. I think it has

>     to be something in the genes these sheep have that is not present

>     in my sheeps' genes or is so recessive that it hasn't shown up.

>

>     *From:* Linda <mailto:patchworkfibers at windstream.net>

>     *Sent:* Thursday, May 03, 2012 7:25 PM

>     *To:* spotted_sheep at bluefrog.com <mailto:spotted_sheep at bluefrog.com>

>     *Cc:* Carl Fosbrink <mailto:fourhornfarm at frontier.com> ;

>     jacob-list at jacobsheep.com <mailto:jacob-list at jacobsheep.com>

>     *Subject:* Re: [Jacob-list] lilac

>

>     My different shaded ewe is a great great granddaughter of PMA

>     Clinton. But my RubyBelle was a granddaughter of Clinton and I've

>     had alot of lilacs descended from her that were uniform in color.

>     I've also seen blacks with a difference in shading, so don't think

>     it's something that is specific to lilacs.

>     Lasell's ewe is something else. The colors certainly do look like

>     completely different colors rather than variations of the same color.

>     Linda

>

>     On 5/3/2012 12:39 PM, spotted_sheep at bluefrog.com wrote:

>>     Well, Harley and Ivory are daughter/mother. The only connection

>>     for B'Elana and Ivory/Harley is P.M.A. Clinton, who appears 8

>>     generations back on B'Elana's twice, and once 9 generations back

>>     a third time. In Ivory's he shows up 6 generations back (7 for

>>     Harley). Not very likely related to the color, but I guess it is

>>     possible... I suppose there could be others farther back, but

>>     that is the only one that stuck out to me.

>>     Harley hasn't been registered yet (haven't had the time or cash

>>     to do it), that's why you can't find her. Her sire is a ram out

>>     of Fibre Folds Chortle and Unzicker Ashton. Chortle carries

>>     lilac, but I don't think that has anything to do with this, as

>>     Ivory (Harley's mother) throws this calico pattern no matter what

>>     ram she is bred to.

>>

>>     Marie

>>     Spot Hollow Farm

>>

>>

>>     --- fourhornfarm at frontier.com wrote:

>>

>>     From: "Carl Fosbrink" <fourhornfarm at frontier.com>

>>     To: <spotted_sheep at bluefrog.com>, "Shannon Phifer"

>>     <kenleighacres at yahoo.com>

>>     Cc: <patchworkfibers at windstream.net>, <justinedixon at aol.com>,

>>     <jacob-list at jacobsheep.com>

>>     Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] lilac

>>     Date: Thu, 3 May 2012 12:01:55 -0400

>>

>>     Do Harley, B'Elana and  Ivory have any common ancestors?

>>

>>     *From:* spotted_sheep at bluefrog.com

>>     <mailto:spotted_sheep at bluefrog.com>

>>     *Sent:* Wednesday, May 02, 2012 8:56 PM

>>     *To:* Shannon Phifer <mailto:kenleighacres at yahoo.com>

>>     *Cc:* patchworkfibers at windstream.net

>>     <mailto:patchworkfibers at windstream.net> ; justinedixon at aol.com

>>     <mailto:justinedixon at aol.com> ; jacob-list at jacobsheep.com

>>     <mailto:jacob-list at jacobsheep.com> ; fourhornfarm at frontier.com

>>     <mailto:fourhornfarm at frontier.com>

>>     *Subject:* Re: [Jacob-list] lilac

>>

>>     I have had almost one lamb every lambing that has been black,

>>     with at least one lilac patch on it. I have two adult ewes in my

>>     flock with this (Spot Hollow Harley and Spot Hollow B'Elana), and

>>     one adult ewe who has thrown at least one lamb a year with this

>>     spotting pattern (Painted Rock Ivory), but does not show it herself.

>>     Ivory's ewe lamb this year is very light, but she has two lilac

>>     spots that seem to "over lap" her black - one on her neck and one

>>     on her front leg. Harley is Ivory's lamb from several years ago

>>     and she has a fairly good sized lilac spot on her side. B'Elana

>>     has one on the back of her neck, she was the first I had seen

>>     with this. Most of the time they are small spots, about the size

>>     of a quarter. I don't think this means they carry lilac, but I

>>     haven't gotten my hands on a good lilac ram to put to them to

>>     see, but they haven't thrown any lilacs when bred to carriers.

>>     Maybe it is something like the gene for calico in cats? Come to

>>     think of it, I have never seen it in rams ; )

>>

>>     Marie

>>     Spot Hollow Farm

>>

>>

>>     --- kenleighacres at yahoo.com wrote:

>>

>>     From: Shannon Phifer <kenleighacres at yahoo.com>

>>     To: Linda <patchworkfibers at windstream.net>,

>>     "justinedixon at aol.com" <justinedixon at aol.com>

>>     Cc: "jacob-list at jacobsheep.com" <jacob-list at jacobsheep.com>,

>>     "fourhornfarm at frontier.com" <fourhornfarm at frontier.com>

>>     Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] lilac

>>     Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 17:00:29 -0700 (PDT)

>>

>>     I believe Karen Lobb, had a black ewe with tawny spot(s) much

>>     like Lasell's, a few years ago.  I can't remember his exact

>>     response, but Gary Anderson responded saying that it had

>>     something to do with the expression of color in those

>>     certain areas of the body.  Not really color related, just color

>>     placement.  Hopefully Gary reads this and can explain it again.

>>     I have a couple lilac ewes much like what Linda described - they

>>     have darker 'lilac' spots within their spots.

>>     Shannon Phifer

>>     Kenleigh Acres Farm

>>     www.kenleigh-acres.com <http://www.kenleigh-acres.com/>

>>

>>     *From:* Linda <patchworkfibers at windstream.net>

>>     *To:* justinedixon at aol.com

>>     *Cc:* jacob-list at jacobsheep.com; fourhornfarm at frontier.com

>>     *Sent:* Wednesday, May 2, 2012 2:47 PM

>>     *Subject:* Re: [Jacob-list] lilac

>>

>>     I haven't seen one with actual black and lilac spots on the same

>>     animal, but I do have a lilac with a few darker chocolate spots

>>     among the lighter spots. She's a two year old and the difference

>>     may have been more obvious at her first shearing. She's one I

>>     sold as a lamb and bought back, so I missed the first shearing.

>>     As a lamb, her color was even. On Quinn, it seems to be a case of

>>     uneven fading, rather than different colors, as the spots are

>>     varying shades of brown.

>>     Lasell had a really interesting one with very distinct color

>>     differences that were apparent at birth. It should be in the

>>     archives or maybe Lasell will share it again.

>>     I don't have any idea what causes the uneven random color. I will

>>     be interested in hearing what others have to say about it.

>>     There is a type of spotting with different colors that can happen

>>     when you have a spotted agouti/shaded patterned animal. In that

>>     case, the dark/light areas correspond to the agouti placements in

>>     a solid animals. You wouldn't see this in Jacobs, but I've seen

>>     it in crossbreds and it's common in spotted rabbits. Obviously

>>     not what you are seeing in your lamb.

>>

>>     Linda

>>

>>     On 5/1/2012 9:19 PM, justinedixon at aol.com

>>     <mailto:justinedixon at aol.com> wrote:

>>

>>         Carl, Linda, Peg et al.

>>

>>         I was very interested reading your comments on lilacs and

>>         colour variation.  I have a lilac yearling that seems to have

>>         black spots also. See attached photo, is this common?

>>

>>         Thanks

>>         Stuart

>>         www.byeburnfarm.com <http://www.byeburnfarm.com/>

>>

>>         Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep <http://www.patchworkfibers.com/>

>>

>>

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>     Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep <http://www.patchworkfibers.com/>

>

>

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