[Jacob-list] lilac

[Gloria Steiger]

Hello,
It might be useful to gather samples of lilac fleece, labelled with age,
location, etc and post them side by side so the differences are more
identifiable.  I would love to see a comparison.
~gloria
(who does not own a lilac sheep but might be bringing one of Lasell's home)



On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 6:06 PM, Linda <patchworkfibers at windstream.net>wrote:


>  Hello Fred,

>

> I would love to see the question asked, researched, and answered and would

> happily participate in any study.

>

> A few questions - is color DNA testing available for sheep? I haven't

> looked into it, but thought it was mentioned on the sheep color genetics

> list that it wasn't. I haven't kept up, so things may have changed or I

> might not be remembering it correctly.  If it is available, that would

> certainly give us a better starting point than personal flock observations.

> The varying "lilac" colors can be difficult to photograph accurately. A

> slight change in color balance can change a black to a blue to a chocolate.

> This does complicate sharing our flock observations.

>

> When we look at our lilacs, we are seeing more than the color genetics. We

> are also seeing modifying factors such as sun bleaching, early graying,

> reactions to mineral intakes, etc, etc. The fleece reflects all these

> factors on top of the color.

>

> This is an interesting topic and I hope it will be continued.

>

> Linda

>

> .

>

>

> On 5/22/2012 3:57 PM, Jacobflock at aol.com wrote:

>

>  Dear listers - The "lilac" color came up again several times from a

> Jacob breeder who stopped in for a visit this past weekend.  The breeder

> was looking for some guidance in identifying a lilac, an explanation of the

> phenotype and why the phenotype among 'lilac' owners had such diversity,

> lacked color precision and was largely opinion based on personal flock

> observations.

>

> I perhaps added to the confusion by adding that the "lilac" color is only

> recognized as a Jacob in North America; it is not recognized as such in

> Great Britain and the Jacob Sheep Society, the original 'breed' standard

> bearer.  If the Jacob is a British breed should its genotype reflect the

> dominant black, recessive white roots.  The early flock literature from

> Britain does not contain references to a lilac color and yet in the

> 1980s the JSS opines it is to be avoided.  Is the lilac a dilution, a

> mutation, something more or less than a simple recessive?

>

> The endogenous retrovirus genetic marker for the Jacob breed, enJSRV-18,

> is absent in the Mediterraenean Muflon which is the origin of other colored

> British breeds but supports an origin to breeds in Africa and Southwest

> Asia where breeds are predominantly black and white.  The Jaagseitke

> (pneumonia type) retrovirus (enJSRV) is polymorphically (there are about 15

> forms of it) inserted on various chromosomes (Jacob is c11), singly or in

> combination, and can be used to trace breed relationships.  It is based on

> this unique marker that we know that the Jacob is not a "Viking" breed nor

> is it related other British primitive and more modern breeds

> (Kilda,Hebridean,Icelandic,Blackface,etc).  But this Jacob breed marker has

> not been found in "lilacs"; only in black and whites.

>

> Several older listers may remember the US breeds genetic distance tests

> done by Harvey Blackburn and his group about a decade ago; about the same

> time the Dept of Ag study on Jacob breed genetic diversity was done.  Here

> again the genetic distance study showed the "Jacob" is an outlier

> breed and is unrelated to other US 'look alike' breeds.  Harvey's study did

> not look at black and white vs lilac.

>

> Should the question be (1) asked (2) researched and (3) answered?  Does

> anyone have any interest and the genetic resources to compare the lilac

> with the black and white? what are corollary issues?  I think Ingrid

> Painter and Jean Rosecrans asked this question 20 years ago.  I asked this

> question on the list about five years ago and there was little or no

> interest except for Carl who was looking for source flocks.  Maybe the JSBA

> would find a definitive answer for writing a 'lilac' standard for its

> members; else does a 'lilac' color standard revert to the common

> denominator - something other than black, e.g., blue, purple, brown, tan,

> mousy, grey, etc,

>

> Regards - Fred Horak

>

>

>

>

>

>

>  In a message dated 5/4/2012 7:57:35 A.M. Central Daylight Time,

> fourhornfarm at frontier.com writes:

>

> I agree Lasell's ewe's color is totally different colors than black or

> lilac. It is something I have never seen in any of several lilacs I have

> had born here over the years. I think it has to be something in the genes

> these sheep have that is not present in my sheeps' genes or is so recessive

> that it hasn't shown up.

>

>  *From:* Linda <patchworkfibers at windstream.net>

> *Sent:* Thursday, May 03, 2012 7:25 PM

> *To:* spotted_sheep at bluefrog.com

> *Cc:* Carl Fosbrink <fourhornfarm at frontier.com> ;

> jacob-list at jacobsheep.com

> *Subject:* Re: [Jacob-list] lilac

>

>  My different shaded ewe is a great great granddaughter of PMA Clinton.

> But my RubyBelle was a granddaughter of Clinton and I've had alot of lilacs

> descended from her that were uniform in color.

> I've also seen blacks with a difference in shading, so don't think it's

> something that is specific to lilacs.

> Lasell's ewe is something else. The colors certainly do look like

> completely different colors rather than variations of the same color.

> Linda

>

> On 5/3/2012 12:39 PM, spotted_sheep at bluefrog.com wrote:

>

> Well, Harley and Ivory are daughter/mother. The only connection for

> B'Elana and Ivory/Harley is P.M.A. Clinton, who appears 8 generations back

> on B'Elana's twice, and once 9 generations back a third time. In Ivory's he

> shows up 6 generations back (7 for Harley). Not very likely related to the

> color, but I guess it is possible... I suppose there could be others

> farther back, but that is the only one that stuck out to me.

> Harley hasn't been registered yet (haven't had the time or cash to do it),

> that's why you can't find her. Her sire is a ram out of Fibre Folds Chortle

> and Unzicker Ashton. Chortle carries lilac, but I don't think that has

> anything to do with this, as Ivory (Harley's mother) throws this calico

> pattern no matter what ram she is bred to.

>

>  Marie

> Spot Hollow Farm

>

>

> --- fourhornfarm at frontier.com wrote:

>

> From: "Carl Fosbrink" <fourhornfarm at frontier.com><fourhornfarm at frontier.com>

> To: <spotted_sheep at bluefrog.com> <spotted_sheep at bluefrog.com>, "Shannon

> Phifer" <kenleighacres at yahoo.com> <kenleighacres at yahoo.com>

> Cc: <patchworkfibers at windstream.net> <patchworkfibers at windstream.net>,

> <justinedixon at aol.com> <justinedixon at aol.com>, <jacob-list at jacobsheep.com><jacob-list at jacobsheep.com>

> Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] lilac

> Date: Thu, 3 May 2012 12:01:55 -0400

>

> Do Harley, B'Elana and  Ivory have any common ancestors?

>

>  *From:* spotted_sheep at bluefrog.com

> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 02, 2012 8:56 PM

> *To:* Shannon Phifer <kenleighacres at yahoo.com>

> *Cc:* patchworkfibers at windstream.net ; justinedixon at aol.com ;

> jacob-list at jacobsheep.com ; fourhornfarm at frontier.com

> *Subject:* Re: [Jacob-list] lilac

>

>  I have had almost one lamb every lambing that has been black, with at

> least one lilac patch on it. I have two adult ewes in my flock with this

> (Spot Hollow Harley and Spot Hollow B'Elana), and one adult ewe who has

> thrown at least one lamb a year with this spotting pattern (Painted Rock

> Ivory), but does not show it herself.

> Ivory's ewe lamb this year is very light, but she has two lilac spots that

> seem to "over lap" her black - one on her neck and one on her front leg.

> Harley is Ivory's lamb from several years ago and she has a fairly good

> sized lilac spot on her side. B'Elana has one on the back of her neck, she

> was the first I had seen with this. Most of the time they are small spots,

> about the size of a quarter. I don't think this means they carry lilac, but

> I haven't gotten my hands on a good lilac ram to put to them to see, but

> they haven't thrown any lilacs when bred to carriers.

> Maybe it is something like the gene for calico in cats? Come to think of

> it, I have never seen it in rams ; )

>

>  Marie

> Spot Hollow Farm

>

>

> --- kenleighacres at yahoo.com wrote:

>

> From: Shannon Phifer <kenleighacres at yahoo.com> <kenleighacres at yahoo.com>

> To: Linda <patchworkfibers at windstream.net><patchworkfibers at windstream.net>,

> "justinedixon at aol.com" <justinedixon at aol.com> <justinedixon at aol.com><justinedixon at aol.com>

> Cc: "jacob-list at jacobsheep.com" <jacob-list at jacobsheep.com>

> <jacob-list at jacobsheep.com> <jacob-list at jacobsheep.com>,

> "fourhornfarm at frontier.com" <fourhornfarm at frontier.com>

> <fourhornfarm at frontier.com> <fourhornfarm at frontier.com>

> Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] lilac

> Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 17:00:29 -0700 (PDT)

>

>  I believe Karen Lobb, had a black ewe with tawny spot(s) much like

> Lasell's, a few years ago.  I can't remember his exact response, but Gary

> Anderson responded saying that it had something to do with the expression

> of color in those certain areas of the body.  Not really color related,

> just color placement.  Hopefully Gary reads this and can explain it again.

> I have a couple lilac ewes much like what Linda described - they have

> darker 'lilac' spots within their spots.

>

> Shannon Phifer

> Kenleigh Acres Farm

> www.kenleigh-acres.com

>

>

>

>   *From:* Linda <patchworkfibers at windstream.net><patchworkfibers at windstream.net>

> *To:* justinedixon at aol.com

> *Cc:* jacob-list at jacobsheep.com; fourhornfarm at frontier.com

> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 2, 2012 2:47 PM

> *Subject:* Re: [Jacob-list] lilac

>

>  I haven't seen one with actual black and lilac spots on the same animal,

> but I do have a lilac with a few darker chocolate spots among the lighter

> spots. She's a two year old and the difference may have been more obvious

> at her first shearing. She's one I sold as a lamb and bought back, so I

> missed the first shearing. As a lamb, her color was even. On Quinn, it

> seems to be a case of uneven fading, rather than different colors, as the

> spots are varying shades of brown.

> Lasell had a really interesting one with very distinct color differences

> that were apparent at birth. It should be in the archives or maybe Lasell

> will share it again.

> I don't have any idea what causes the uneven random color. I will be

> interested in hearing what others have to say about it.

> There is a type of spotting with different colors that can happen when you

> have a spotted agouti/shaded patterned animal. In that case, the dark/light

> areas correspond to the agouti placements in a solid animals. You wouldn't

> see this in Jacobs, but I've seen it in crossbreds and it's common in

> spotted rabbits. Obviously not what you are seeing in your lamb.

>

> Linda

>

> On 5/1/2012 9:19 PM, justinedixon at aol.com wrote:

>

> Carl, Linda, Peg et al.

>

>  I was very interested reading your comments on lilacs and colour

> variation.  I have a lilac yearling that seems to have black spots also.

> See attached photo, is this common?

>

>  Thanks

> Stuart

> www.byeburnfarm.com

>

> Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep <http://www.patchworkfibers.com/>

>

>

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