[Jacob-list] lilac

[Carl Fosbrink]

       Diane Fagerberg and Janine Fenton told me they started with  Jacobs that came from the lines that originated from the Chicago zoo  Jacobs who had the knee and hock spots. There were several lilacs in that line of Jacobs and they carried the Maverick prefix. Bill Reynolds had Jacobs from the Chicago zoo Jacobs  soon after they were let out to the public and he got several lilacs. Diane and Janine later obtained Jacobs from the English import lines that had more white legs  etc. and they carried the Rockies prefix. They bred these two lines separately at first, but later crossed them.
       I bought and used the ram Canberra Constible for many years and he was a lilac carrier from the Maverick lines. The Canberra prefix was Marsha Poole's. She had a very good eye for Jacobs and many of them came from the Maverick lines. When she got out of the Jacobs, due to her moving, she took them back to Diane and Janine. 
       Every now and then I would get a lilac lamb out of Canberra Constible. A few years ago I wanted to get some unrelated lilac ewes so I could mate them to a lilac son of Constible that I kept named 4Horn Farm's Solomon. I wanted to mate lilac to lilac and learn about lilacs. I wanted to test color differences and color retention etc. I got some ewes from Shannon Phifer that were daughters of her ram that went back to Canberra Jack who was a lilac. 
       Most of my Jacob flock is black and white, but I have a few lilac ewes with the black and whites and a small group of lilac to lilac that produces lilac lambs. Once in awhile I get a lilac lamb from my black and white flock because there are lilac carriers in there. When a carrier is bred to a carrier you sometimes get a lilac lamb and lilac bred to lilac produces all lilac lambs for me. Some retain their color better than others just like some black and whites retain their dark color better than others and the quality of lilacs is just as good as the quality of the black and white Jacobs . 
        I have learned a few things about lilac Jacobs, but still have much to learn. I have learned that lilacs were a part of the breed from the time they came out of the Chicago zoo. I would like to know more about lilacs from the English imports that came through Canada later. If anyone has information about lilacs from these Jacobs please contact me.

Carl
      


From: Jacobflock at aol.com 
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2012 3:57 PM
To: fourhornfarm at frontier.com ; patchworkfibers at windstream.net ; spotted_sheep at bluefrog.com 
Cc: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com 
Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] lilac


Dear listers - The "lilac" color came up again several times from a Jacob breeder who stopped in for a visit this past weekend.  The breeder was looking for some guidance in identifying a lilac, an explanation of the phenotype and why the phenotype among 'lilac' owners had such diversity, lacked color precision and was largely opinion based on personal flock observations.  

I perhaps added to the confusion by adding that the "lilac" color is only recognized as a Jacob in North America; it is not recognized as such in Great Britain and the Jacob Sheep Society, the original 'breed' standard bearer.  If the Jacob is a British breed should its genotype reflect the dominant black, recessive white roots.  The early flock literature from Britain does not contain references to a lilac color and yet in the 1980s the JSS opines it is to be avoided.  Is the lilac a dilution, a mutation, something more or less than a simple recessive?

The endogenous retrovirus genetic marker for the Jacob breed, enJSRV-18, is absent in the Mediterraenean Muflon which is the origin of other colored British breeds but supports an origin to breeds in Africa and Southwest Asia where breeds are predominantly black and white.  The Jaagseitke (pneumonia type) retrovirus (enJSRV) is polymorphically (there are about 15 forms of it) inserted on various chromosomes (Jacob is c11), singly or in combination, and can be used to trace breed relationships.  It is based on this unique marker that we know that the Jacob is not a "Viking" breed nor is it related other British primitive and more modern breeds (Kilda,Hebridean,Icelandic,Blackface,etc).  But this Jacob breed marker has not been found in "lilacs"; only in black and whites. 

Several older listers may remember the US breeds genetic distance tests done by Harvey Blackburn and his group about a decade ago; about the same time the Dept of Ag study on Jacob breed genetic diversity was done.  Here again the genetic distance study showed the "Jacob" is an outlier breed and is unrelated to other US 'look alike' breeds.  Harvey's study did not look at black and white vs lilac.  

Should the question be (1) asked (2) researched and (3) answered?  Does anyone have any interest and the genetic resources to compare the lilac with the black and white? what are corollary issues?  I think Ingrid Painter and Jean Rosecrans asked this question 20 years ago.  I asked this question on the list about five years ago and there was little or no interest except for Carl who was looking for source flocks.  Maybe the JSBA would find a definitive answer for writing a 'lilac' standard for its members; else does a 'lilac' color standard revert to the common denominator - something other than black, e.g., blue, purple, brown, tan, mousy, grey, etc,  

Regards - Fred Horak 



    


In a message dated 5/4/2012 7:57:35 A.M. Central Daylight Time, fourhornfarm at frontier.com writes:
  I agree Lasell's ewe's color is totally different colors than black or lilac. It is something I have never seen in any of several lilacs I have had born here over the years. I think it has to be something in the genes these sheep have that is not present in my sheeps' genes or is so recessive that it hasn't shown up.


  From: Linda 
  Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2012 7:25 PM
  To: spotted_sheep at bluefrog.com 
  Cc: Carl Fosbrink ; jacob-list at jacobsheep.com 
  Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] lilac


  My different shaded ewe is a great great granddaughter of PMA Clinton. But my RubyBelle was a granddaughter of Clinton and I've had alot of lilacs descended from her that were uniform in color. 
  I've also seen blacks with a difference in shading, so don't think it's something that is specific to lilacs. 
  Lasell's ewe is something else. The colors certainly do look like completely different colors rather than variations of the same color.
  Linda

  On 5/3/2012 12:39 PM, spotted_sheep at bluefrog.com wrote: 
    Well, Harley and Ivory are daughter/mother. The only connection for B'Elana and Ivory/Harley is P.M.A. Clinton, who appears 8 generations back on B'Elana's twice, and once 9 generations back a third time. In Ivory's he shows up 6 generations back (7 for Harley). Not very likely related to the color, but I guess it is possible... I suppose there could be others farther back, but that is the only one that stuck out to me. 
    Harley hasn't been registered yet (haven't had the time or cash to do it), that's why you can't find her. Her sire is a ram out of Fibre Folds Chortle and Unzicker Ashton. Chortle carries lilac, but I don't think that has anything to do with this, as Ivory (Harley's mother) throws this calico pattern no matter what ram she is bred to.


    Marie
    Spot Hollow Farm



    --- fourhornfarm at frontier.com wrote:

    From: "Carl Fosbrink" <fourhornfarm at frontier.com>
    To: <spotted_sheep at bluefrog.com>, "Shannon Phifer" <kenleighacres at yahoo.com>
    Cc: <patchworkfibers at windstream.net>, <justinedixon at aol.com>, <jacob-list at jacobsheep.com>
    Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] lilac
    Date: Thu, 3 May 2012 12:01:55 -0400


    Do Harley, B'Elana and  Ivory have any common ancestors? 


    From: spotted_sheep at bluefrog.com 
    Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 8:56 PM
    To: Shannon Phifer 
    Cc: patchworkfibers at windstream.net ; justinedixon at aol.com ; jacob-list at jacobsheep.com ; fourhornfarm at frontier.com 
    Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] lilac


    I have had almost one lamb every lambing that has been black, with at least one lilac patch on it. I have two adult ewes in my flock with this (Spot Hollow Harley and Spot Hollow B'Elana), and one adult ewe who has thrown at least one lamb a year with this spotting pattern (Painted Rock Ivory), but does not show it herself. 
    Ivory's ewe lamb this year is very light, but she has two lilac spots that seem to "over lap" her black - one on her neck and one on her front leg. Harley is Ivory's lamb from several years ago and she has a fairly good sized lilac spot on her side. B'Elana has one on the back of her neck, she was the first I had seen with this. Most of the time they are small spots, about the size of a quarter. I don't think this means they carry lilac, but I haven't gotten my hands on a good lilac ram to put to them to see, but they haven't thrown any lilacs when bred to carriers.
    Maybe it is something like the gene for calico in cats? Come to think of it, I have never seen it in rams ; )


    Marie
    Spot Hollow Farm


    --- kenleighacres at yahoo.com wrote:

    From: Shannon Phifer <kenleighacres at yahoo.com>
    To: Linda <patchworkfibers at windstream.net>, "justinedixon at aol.com" <justinedixon at aol.com>
    Cc: "jacob-list at jacobsheep.com" <jacob-list at jacobsheep.com>, "fourhornfarm at frontier.com" <fourhornfarm at frontier.com>
    Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] lilac
    Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 17:00:29 -0700 (PDT)


    I believe Karen Lobb, had a black ewe with tawny spot(s) much like Lasell's, a few years ago.  I can't remember his exact response, but Gary Anderson responded saying that it had something to do with the expression of color in those certain areas of the body.  Not really color related, just color placement.  Hopefully Gary reads this and can explain it again.  
    I have a couple lilac ewes much like what Linda described - they have darker 'lilac' spots within their spots.  

    Shannon Phifer
    Kenleigh Acres Farm
    www.kenleigh-acres.com




    From: Linda <patchworkfibers at windstream.net>
    To: justinedixon at aol.com 
    Cc: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com; fourhornfarm at frontier.com 
    Sent: Wednesday, May 2, 2012 2:47 PM
    Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] lilac



    I haven't seen one with actual black and lilac spots on the same animal, but I do have a lilac with a few darker chocolate spots among the lighter spots. She's a two year old and the difference may have been more obvious at her first shearing. She's one I sold as a lamb and bought back, so I missed the first shearing. As a lamb, her color was even. On Quinn, it seems to be a case of uneven fading, rather than different colors, as the spots are varying shades of brown.
    Lasell had a really interesting one with very distinct color differences that were apparent at birth. It should be in the archives or maybe Lasell will share it again.
    I don't have any idea what causes the uneven random color. I will be interested in hearing what others have to say about it.
    There is a type of spotting with different colors that can happen when you have a spotted agouti/shaded patterned animal. In that case, the dark/light areas correspond to the agouti placements in a solid animals. You wouldn't see this in Jacobs, but I've seen it in crossbreds and it's common in spotted rabbits. Obviously not what you are seeing in your lamb.

    Linda

    On 5/1/2012 9:19 PM, justinedixon at aol.com wrote: 
      Carl, Linda, Peg et al. 


      I was very interested reading your comments on lilacs and colour variation.  I have a lilac yearling that seems to have black spots also. See attached photo, is this common?


      Thanks
      Stuart
      www.byeburnfarm.com  

      Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep 

    _______________________________________________
    Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks
    Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
    http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list



    _______________________________________________ Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list 

     

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    This message was delivered by BlueFrog.com. For the best email, please visit http://www.bluefrog.com

    If you believe this message is spam, please report to abuse at bluefrog.com.

     

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    This message was delivered by BlueFrog.com. For the best email, please visit http://www.bluefrog.com

    If you believe this message is spam, please report to abuse at bluefrog.com.

     

_______________________________________________
Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks
Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list


  -- 
  Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep 


  _______________________________________________
  Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks
  Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
  http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://www.pairlist.net/pipermail/jacob-list/attachments/20120523/447ab140/attachment-0001.htm>