[Jacob-list] generations...

[Dan Carpenter]

I would be "tickled pink" to have high generation letters on my sheep's
pedigrees.  Having said that, I know of at least two of the early Jacob
breeders who will still use a low generation number ram if they like the
boy's looks.  I suspect that these breeders remember how small the gene pool
is and the variability that was considered part of the breed (remember that
a gene pool's size depends on the number of animals that it started with,
not the number of animals alive now).  Another long-time breeder told me
that once your breeding program focuses on a single trait--especially if it
becomes the driving force in a breed organization--you run the risk of
damaging the breed overall.  (And generation letter is a single factor, if
not trait.)

I've seen Gary's sheep and I don't think that he's doing anything that would
damage the breed, in fact quite the contrary.  (I would have bought one of
his ewes at 2009 AGM if I hadn't already spent all of my money,.and I'd
recommend them to anyone.)  But Gary has more animal breeding experience and
more breeder connections than the average breeder...or at least than I do.
If I were to set the generation letter has my top priority I would have to
settle for a highly inbred flock (as I'd have to use my own sheep or keep
buying from the same area breeders) or I'd have to keep buying from Gary (of
course, he IS a local breeder for me).

Don't get me wrong--I'm happy to see the higher generation letters showing
up in the JSBA registrations as it speaks to the maturity of the breed and
therefore the credibility of the animals as a breed (rather than just a
look).  I just don't think I'm ever going to be on the "cutting edge" of
high breed letters.

-Dan

-----Original Message-----
From: jacob-list-bounces at jacobsheep.com
[mailto:jacob-list-bounces at jacobsheep.com] On Behalf Of fourhornfarm
Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 10:54 PM
To: Zach Oaster; Linda
Cc: Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] generations...


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Zach Oaster" <zach at zoproduction.com>
To: "Linda" <patchworkfibers at windstream.net>
Cc: <Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 9:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] generations...



> Actually, the ram I had considered was Unzicker Captain himself... who

> by all accounts is a proven great ram... but C generation...

>

> So I guess at this point we've heard from several people who advocate

> for caring less about generations... Is there anyone out there who

> would advocate strongly for moving generations forward? I mean, the

> generational registration is there for a reason right? Hypothetically,

> if one buys/breeds good sheep AND advances the generations of

> registered sheep, isn't that good for the breed as a whole? If my goal

> is to proliferate and advance the Jacob as a breed (since they are

> "threatened"), wouldn't encouraging solid generational breeding be

> good?  ...or would it simply move the Jacob closer to a commercial

> standardization (which most would label a bad thing, including me).

>

> Could someone with a strong opinion toward positive generational

> breeding give some insight as to how to maintain the uniqueness of the

> breed at the same time as advancing generations?

>

> Thanks everyone!

>

Zach,

   Maybe someone else will give you a more positive reason for selecting E 
or F generation over C generation. The theory of higher letters being better

sheep would depend on what quality of sheep were kept for breeding.
   It is my opinion  that knowing the parents, grand-parents, 
great-grandparents, etc. and what they looked like is more important than 
the number of generations that have been registered.
   We all know that not every Jacob lamb born is a good representative of 
the breed. Many of my lambs are culled, even though they would be 
registrable, because they are not high quality enough for me to put out 
there with my farm name on their pedigree. I want Jacobs that carry my farm 
name to be something I can be proud that came from my farm.
    I also do not like to buy or sell lambs because Jacob horns do not 
attain the majority of their growth until the age of two and horns can 
change direction dramatically between even one and two years of age. I have 
occasionally made an exception to my rule, but only twice, and in one of 
those two cases I was greatly disappointed in how the lamb turned out when 
it was 2 yrs. old.
   When you purchase lambs you know you are taking a chance on those lambs 
turning out great or turning out to be culls or somewhere in between. A ram 
whose horns are acceptable for registration at a year old may not be 
acceptable by two years old. That is just the way it is and that is one 
reason I prefer to buy Jacobs two years of age or older.

Carl

> ^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^

> Zach Oaster

> zach at fattoaster.com

> ^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^

> Visit Zach's worship resource and blog site: http://www.fattoaster.com

> Visit Zach & Lindsay's farm blog: http://fattoasterfarm.wordpress.com

> ^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^

>

>

>

> On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 8:14 PM, Linda <patchworkfibers at windstream.net> 

> wrote:

>> I sure wouldn't limit my gene pool to only D and above animals. The first

>> thing I look at when I get my flock book is the FF listing. Some of the

>> animals registered as FF might be auction sheep with no known 

>> background -

>> but some might be concentrated Lesseau via Fine Fettle or Fieldwood via

>> Culloden. I certainly was happy to add a Yakob-Tson ram to my flock back 

>> in

>> 2000, even though I had to register him as FF. The Reynold's flock has

>> recently come back to JSBA and are coming in as FF.

>> At this point in my breeding, I probably wouldn't go with an FF ram 

>> unless

>> the breeder had kept records (with pictures - especially of the maternal

>> line).I like to know whatever I can about the background of my breeding

>> stock. You are talking about a C generation ram, which I gather from 

>> Betty's

>> post is an Unzicker Captain son. Nice lines with plenty of information

>> available.

>> I have a beautiful F generation ewe from Gary. I bought her because she 

>> is a

>> nice ewe in all respects. I would have bought her if she had been several

>> generations down.

>>

>> Linda

>>

>> Hello all,

>>

>> My wife Lindsay and I recently started our flock of jacobs with 3 ewes

>> from Gary Anderson. Two of them are E generation, and one is D. Their

>> lambs in the spring will all be E (they are being bred right now to a

>> D generation ram on-loan from Gary).

>>

>> Lasell Bartlet and I were chatting about the value of moving the

>> generations forward vs. just breeding good sheep. Lasell put it this

>> way, "...for some it might certainly be a selling point -- but not

>> sure what exactly it proves"... she talked about how she had been

>> breeding good sheep for years, and only recently started to register

>> some of them. She posed the question, which I will now pass along to

>> the experts here in the group, "what might be the value of E (or

>> later) generation versus FF generation Jacobs."

>>

>> The reason the conversation started in the first place was because I

>> was hesitant to buy a really nice C generation ram from Lasell because

>> it would "set back" the offspring of my ewes (generationally...

>> otherwise, the ram is awesome). If my goal is to responsibly breed

>> good sheep that are continually bettering the breed, should I concern

>> myself with generation?

>>

>> Thanks in advance for your insight.

>>

>> PS... Lasell approves of me asking the question with her name

>> attached... she was going to ask if I didn't.

>> ^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^

>> Zach Oaster

>> zach at fattoaster.com

>> ^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^

>> Visit Zach's worship resource and blog site: http://www.fattoaster.com

>> Visit Zach & Lindsay's farm blog: http://fattoasterfarm.wordpress.com

>> ^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^

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>>

>> --

>> Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep

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