[Jacob-list] breeding for polycerates

[Betty Berlenbach]

Yeah, I know that, but she was asking if breeding 2 to 4 or 4 to 2 instead of 4 to 4 would yield STRONGER 4 horns in progeny...that's what I think would take years of study to figure out.  I know Marianne and Bob like to breed 2 to 4, thinking it yields less SUED in 4 horned, and it seems that 4 to 4 yields a further spread in 4 horns than 2 to 4 or 4 to 2.  And any SUED I have had has been in widespread four horned.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Mary Hansson 
  To: Betty Berlenbach 
  Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2005 12:32 PM
  Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] breeding for polycerates


  Betty,

  Neal asked the question a few years back.  What we found was that horn number in large samples (instead of say in my own backyard) pointed to # of horns being pretty close to the predicted Mendel pea study......  100% 2 horned parents yield 2 horned offspring 100% of the time.  putting 4-horned to 2-horned yields about 75% 4-horned and 25% 2-horned.  Putting 4-horned with 4-horned only yields 4-horned 100% of the time if the parents appear to be homozygous 4-horned and only produce 4-horned offspring time after time.

  MEH

  Betty Berlenbach <lambfarm at sover.net> wrote:
    So what did you decide?  Or is Juliet quoting you; is that what you're saying?
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Mary Hansson 
      To: Betty Berlenbach 
      Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2005 9:02 AM
      Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] breeding for polycerates


      Betty,

      This was the sort of info collected by the Jacob Research Project that was so poo-poo'd a few years back.  There are something like 500+ animals in that group to the best of my memory.

      MEH

      Betty Berlenbach <lambfarm at sover.net> wrote:
        Good questions all, Juliet, most of which I haven't spent a lot of time 
        considering. I have used both two horned and four horned rams. Lately, 
        I've used a four horned guy, but this year, the ewes will be divided between 
        a two and a four. Last year I had some weak horns and some lateral scurs in 
        females. I will observe over the next couple of years the differences 
        between the two and the four and let you know. I will have 4 to 4, 4 to 2, 
        2 to 4, and 2 to 2, going, but not a big enough number of any group to be 
        conclusive. I wonder if people would all like to keep records over a couple 
        of years, and try to come to some conclusions? Maybe some already have. It 
        will be interesting to see. I suspect that a lot depends on the particular 
        genes of the particular four and two horned rams, as well as just the fact 
        of multiple hornedness. And, I also think nutrition plays a part in it, 
        both in terms of pasture and grains, minerals, etc. Maybe even amount of 
        sunlight, since vitamin D, supposedly is needed to build strong bones. I 
        wonder if areas where there's more sunlight significantly than areas where 
        it is overcast a lot make for a difference, over generations, in the nature 
        of horns...hm...
        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: "gordon johnston" 
        To: 
        Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2005 6:23 AM
        Subject: [Jacob-list] breeding for polycerates


        >I would like the advice of those breeding 4 horned Jacobs please. It has
        > been suggested to me that for good strong horns it is better to use a 
        > heavy
        > horned 2 horned ram over 4 horned ewes ; has anyone tried this and what 
        > are
        > the results ? The theory is that 2 and 4 horned animals have the same horn
        > mass, divided between however many horns they have, but that 4 horned 
        > sheep
        > tend to gradually loose that mass, so to keep strong horns, especially in
        > females, fresh mass should be introduced from a 2 horned sire.
        > We have always bred 4 to 4 horns in our Jacobs, but now we wish to improve
        > the horns on our Hebrideans (which are a small black primitive Scottish
        > breed, and come in 2 or 4 horned versions like Jacobs, also occasionally
        > polled, top-knotted or many-horned) , which tend to have weak horns in the
        > females, and the experience of Jacob breeders will be invaluable.
        > By increasing horn mass, are we likely to lose the space btween the 4 
        > horns
        > in males? (Hebrideans are smaller than Jacobs so have smaller heads to 
        > carry
        > the horns)
        > The other aspect to consider is the hornset itself ie the position of the
        > horns. Forward-pointing horns are undesirable in that in rams they can
        > impede grazing, but equally horns which curl backwards are unsightly,
        > unimpressive and can eventually turn into the back of the head or neck. 
        > What
        > we are seeking is good straight horns - would using a 2 horned sire 
        > decrease
        > the control over hornset ? Have you found that the hornset is highly
        > heritable, and if so is the female influence greater than the male (or 
        > vice
        > versa)?
        >
        > Juliet in Scotland
        >
        >
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      Mary Ellen Hansson, MEd, RD, LDN
      ISeeSpots Farm
      Jacob Sheep: Lambs, adults, wool
      www.iseespots.com


  Mary Ellen Hansson, MEd, RD, LDN
  ISeeSpots Farm
  Jacob Sheep: Lambs, adults, wool
  www.iseespots.com
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