[Jacob-list] spots

[Neal and Louise Grose]

"So, you are saying that when you use a black and white ram on crossbred longwools (now is part of the cross jacob?), then you get piebald? "
The crossbred longwools are Cotswald/Finn/Lincoln. No Jacob or Dorset. We started out with Corriedale, so there may be some of that in there, i don't remember. The Finn in there can do some strange things, but interbreeding in the long wool group produces results typical of the Lincoln. The flock is mixed white and "black" that does the typical fade-quickly-to-silver of longwool sheep. This makes the color distinctive from the brown tone Jacob black.

"Now, did you tell me: did Max breed a black and white jacob as well?  I think that is necessary for a control, so to speak."
I did not breed Max to black and white this year, but I will next fall, especially if I back cross some to him to see how persistant characteristics are. 

"I have a friend who crossed a jacob ram (black and white) with a crossbred black ewe, but she was the product of a jacob and a romney/dorset, and got a jacob looking lamb."
Our first bunch of sheep resulted in the Hescock ram and a black Corriedale ewe producing a solid black lamb. This lamb was bred to the old silver Cotswald/Finn ram (yes, it was the only possible mating, no other ram on the farm at that time) and produced an all WHITE lamb. The white came from the Jacob grandsire, and may well be considered all piebald. 

"Do you suppose there is a difference in outcome of crosses between the earlier importations of jacobs and the Hescock/Lasseau/Rockefeller/etc. (those imported in the 70's after there had been some crossing in Britain) AND are there any flocks in this country which are purely earlier importations with no later importation blood in them?  "
We had one ewe from the Hesscock ram that has contributed signifigantly to the genetics of the flock. The rest are from somewhere up in Canada, and we have linebred to that side of the group. Wayne and Edie may know more about who might have no later imports, but in general, everyone was so desperit for outcross genetics that I don't know  who that would be. Keep in mind that the piebld crossbred offspring came out of the non-Hescock rams, which are the ones assumed to have offbrand breeding. Actually, the smaller bloodlines may well have breeding of other primitive breeds. So much for purity.  
[The topknots, by the way are typical of the Lincoln/Cotswald group.]

Registered American Holsteins are "purebred" for 150 years now, with a continuously kept herdbook. Before that, they were "crossbreds" of Danish origin and share background with Dutch Belted. Jacob sheep, on the other hand are much older in breed origin, maybe as much as 400 years, and have minor vacilations in the meantime. Yawn. As Tara said: ",Jacob pureness (gulp, there I said it...) 
is still at the "walks like a duck..." stage and only through looking at what 
they produce do we have any control over what we *think* we are conserving in a 
full blooded state." (hey, Tara, I did read that last night)

What we are left with is a "case history" of what constitutes a Jacob sheep. It's not perfect. 

Neal Grose
Mark Twain: "Get your facts straight first, then you can distort them as you please."




                                  
----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Betty Berlenbach 
  To: Neal and Louise Grose 
  Cc: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 7:33 AM
  Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] spots


  I have a friend who crossed a jacob ram (black and white) with a crossbred black ewe, but she was the product of a jacob and a romney/dorset, and got a jacob looking lamb.  I assumed it was either because of the dorset or because somehow, the half of her that was jacob combined with the jacob ram to produce a jacob lamb.

  So, you are saying that when you use a black and white ram on crossbred longwools (now is part of the cross jacob?), then you get piebald?  THat would be consistent with Sue's experience, if part of the crossbrededness was jacob.  Otherwise, not.  In situations like that I can see people rationalizing and saying since it is piebald, it got the jacob genes, and hence is purebred jacob, to which I would say, it got the jacob piebald gene, but that doesn't guarantee it got ALL the jacob genes.  Does that make sense?

  This is neat stuff.  By the way, I didn't lend you Max, I gave him to you.  I don't want him back, thank you very much!  You are welcome to say I sold him to you if you want.  But he's yours, yours, yours!  

  Now, did you tell me: did Max breed a black and white jacob as well?  I think that is necessary for a control, so to speak.

  Another thought:  Do you suppose there is a difference in outcome of crosses between the earlier importations of jacobs and the Hescock/Lasseau/Rockefeller/etc. (those imported in the 70's after there had been some crossing in Britain) AND are there any flocks in this country which are purely earlier importations with no later importation blood in them?  We know that Maizie has pure later importation, as she has a closed flock.  If we could find a flock with no Hescock, etc. blood, then we might try this on the two jacob strains, or whatever the right term is, and may yield different results.  In effect, could the later importations all be the equivalent of what you have yielded: all jacob crosses.  It's for sure that the lambs I get from Hescock line ewes, or what is suspected to be Hescock line ewes frequently have a bit of wool forward of the horns, even if it does disappear by six months.  And a friend, who has all originally (or most, she vascillates) Lasseau ewes, has a predominance of lambs with topknots of wool, very long, like a clown wig.  And they are bigger than my ewes.

  Also, what happens when you put dominant white ram on lilacs?  There's so many factors here.  Or did you tell me that?  Gotta' reread your note.  Forget it.  Just reread.

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