[Jacob-list] spots

[Betty Berlenbach]

I have a friend who crossed a jacob ram (black and white) with a crossbred black ewe, but she was the product of a jacob and a romney/dorset, and got a jacob looking lamb.  I assumed it was either because of the dorset or because somehow, the half of her that was jacob combined with the jacob ram to produce a jacob lamb.

So, you are saying that when you use a black and white ram on crossbred longwools (now is part of the cross jacob?), then you get piebald?  THat would be consistent with Sue's experience, if part of the crossbrededness was jacob.  Otherwise, not.  In situations like that I can see people rationalizing and saying since it is piebald, it got the jacob genes, and hence is purebred jacob, to which I would say, it got the jacob piebald gene, but that doesn't guarantee it got ALL the jacob genes.  Does that make sense?

This is neat stuff.  By the way, I didn't lend you Max, I gave him to you.  I don't want him back, thank you very much!  You are welcome to say I sold him to you if you want.  But he's yours, yours, yours!  

Now, did you tell me: did Max breed a black and white jacob as well?  I think that is necessary for a control, so to speak.

Another thought:  Do you suppose there is a difference in outcome of crosses between the earlier importations of jacobs and the Hescock/Lasseau/Rockefeller/etc. (those imported in the 70's after there had been some crossing in Britain) AND are there any flocks in this country which are purely earlier importations with no later importation blood in them?  We know that Maizie has pure later importation, as she has a closed flock.  If we could find a flock with no Hescock, etc. blood, then we might try this on the two jacob strains, or whatever the right term is, and may yield different results.  In effect, could the later importations all be the equivalent of what you have yielded: all jacob crosses.  It's for sure that the lambs I get from Hescock line ewes, or what is suspected to be Hescock line ewes frequently have a bit of wool forward of the horns, even if it does disappear by six months.  And a friend, who has all originally (or most, she vascillates) Lasseau ewes, has a predominance of lambs with topknots of wool, very long, like a clown wig.  And they are bigger than my ewes.

Also, what happens when you put dominant white ram on lilacs?  There's so many factors here.  Or did you tell me that?  Gotta' reread your note.  Forget it.  Just reread.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Neal and Louise Grose 
  To: Betty Berlenbach ; jacob-list at jacobsheep.com 
  Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 11:38 PM
  Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] spots


  Betty:"Tell us, Neal, what does it all mean?" 
   Who, me? Ask Fred. Maybe he knows some answers. I only know some really interesting questions.

  Yes, we have a moorit X lilac Jacob that is black AND white. I want a few more to look at because as I go back and count, this lamb was dropped perhaps 152 days after the little ram was put in with the ewes. We really ought to have a couple more to at least see how consistent this is.

  The trick is, this is the same pattern that we see when we cross lilac onto the more dominant white longwool sheep. If this pattern carries on the longwool crosses, then it should carry through in the moorit. Keep in mind that Jacob sheep carry a "dominant" white gene and piebald switches between the black and white. We have previously used a Hescock linebred ram that sired solid black lambs when used on Corriedale and longwool ewes. Rams from our main bloodline used on the same ewes always sire piebald lambs. 

  In previous cases of black and white rams on white ewes, we get identical results to the use of lilac rams. (We try to eat all crossbreds, but in the case of the lilac X moorits, I may want to make a back-cross to moorit to see what happens.) In talking to other breeders, there are a number of others that have seen strong piebald expression in crosses. Others have just assumed they were seeing things and passed it off as a mistake.

  Here is a point that rather baffles me. Our longwool ewes are typical dominant white, recessive black.  Lambs from white ewes tend to be a higher percentage of white than ones from black ewes. The black longwool sheep are recessive black, so the only source of white is from the Jacob, just as is the case with the moorit crosses. The exhibited black appears to be the JACOB dominant black in both cases. Why are these two groups not the same? I do not know if we are seeing different piebald genes or different white genes in the two Jacob lines. Perhaps as someone else suggested, all white sheep are solid piebald.

  Neal Grose

    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Betty Berlenbach 
    To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com 
    Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 9:51 PM
    Subject: [Jacob-list] spots


    Hey, List, I was so busy thinking about the fact that that lilac ewe of Neal's had a black and white baby that I totally overlooked the fact that she had a black AND white baby.  Crosses with jacobs in the past except with dorsets, I thought yielded black lambs with maybe a random blaze of white or some such, but not a jacob looking lamb.  I've had a black and white jacob mistakenly bred to a shetland (I have to look it up, I think it was a moorit) and it yielded a black lamb with bit of white.  For the lamb from jacob ewe and shetland moorit ram (most recessive color, nothing in it genetically BUT brown) to be jacob-looking, pattern wise is most interesting. I'll be eager to see if all the lambs are jacob-looking and then, will turn around and ask Neal why this has happened, if he knows?  "Cause according to everythign I've read, it should not be jacob-looking patterned.  Tell us, Neal, what does it all mean?
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