[AGL] reply to Michele's statement

[Jon Ford]

Bill== Free will? Read some more philosophy. There are plenty of 
philosophers who would defend the concept of free will/free choice, even 
without the prop of a wise creator-God. You are simply being 
dogmatic,asserting a claim without evidence. You could argue that people who 
believe in free will have a burden to prove it exists, but you can't just 
state like some tin-pot prophet "free will is a delusion!"

Jon

>From: "Bill Irwin" <billi at aloha.net>
>Reply-To: survivors' reminiscences about Austin Ghetto Daze in the 
>60s<austin-ghetto-list at pairlist.net>
>To: "survivors' reminiscences about Austin Ghetto Daze in the 
>60s"<austin-ghetto-list at pairlist.net>
>Subject: Re: [AGL] reply to Michele's statement
>Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 09:23:10 -1000
>
>Pretty good deconstruction Mike.
>If you want wisdom you first have to get rid of delusions.  One delusion
>that should go first is that one has free will.
>Aloha
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Michael Eisenstadt" <michaele at ando.pair.com>
>To: "survivors' reminiscences about Austin Ghetto Daze in the 60s"
><austin-ghetto-list at pairlist.net>
>Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 5:58 AM
>Subject: [AGL] reply to Michele's statement
>
>
> > Michele,
> >
> > You have often spoken to me on this subject but never at such
> > length. Permit me to reply interlinearly to some of what you've written.
> >
> > >I believe that God (or whatever name you choose) made us
> > because He/She needed love—that in some way He was lonely
> > and because He had a need to "see Himself"
> >
> > According to Hegel, the attempt "to see Himself/Oneself" is the
> > ultimate exercise of human consciousness. This suggests to me
> > that the attributes you have identified as God's are merely
> > human projections.
> >
> > >He placed us in a perfect place where all our needs were met (without
> > spilling a drop of blood). He gave us free will—otherwise how would we
> > be like Him and what would our love be worth if we didn't choose it?
> >
> > Once again, why does free will require a God? Logically, in assuming
> > the existence of God, you are committing the error of petitio
> > principii (assuming the conclusion as your starting point).
> >
> > Now I know that you will remind me of your personal experiences
> > with you know who. That solves the petitio principii problem. But
> > that brings up the veracity of testimonial or testifying. Would that I
> > could accept testimony. Testimony is worthless unless confirmed.
> >
> > >Then came curiosity. Had things progressed in the way He wanted, we
> > would have been good, obedient students, matching knowledge with wisdom
> > and growing towards oneness with Him.
> > The Tree of Knowledge was not all about sex, it was about sex and
> > everything else. Seduced by instant gratification, we transgressed—not
> > waiting to learn wisdom as He intended to teach us.
> >
> > You are assuming that "seduced by instant gratification" is a bad
> > thing. You may know this from personal experience. But that is
> > not my personal experience. I see absolutely no reason why instant
> > sexual or other gratification is bad.
> >
> > As for wisdom which we all crave, to believe that the deity desires
> > that we pursue it, that too is a human projection, an admirable
> > one to be sure. There has been a little progress in the human
> > pursuit of wisdom. A necessary condition was the invention of
> > writing. Part of our progress towards wisdom consists of
> > practicing the ascesis of avoiding logical errors. Part of it has
> > been the realization that received beliefs (about God and on
> > other subjects) are to be examined closely for possible errors.
> > Then we can try to think through the issues. If there is no
> > reason and no evidence for a belief in God (my viewpoint),
> > it is best abandonned as an impediment to the pursuit of
> > wisdom.
> >
> > That's as far as i got in your letter at this time.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> >
>
>

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