[AGL] reply to Michele's statement

[Michele Mason]

It must be wonderful—look what over-education has done for you guys. 
Dismissal comes easily now.  Ask a simple ? Get my simple answer. That 
I know it to be true is where I stand, As I said, you will value what 
you will. That is hardly dogmatic. In agreement, or out, I expect 
nothing more, nor less.  mm

On Nov 2, 2006, at 1:48 PM, Jon Ford wrote:

>
> Bill== Free will? Read some more philosophy. There are plenty of 
> philosophers who would defend the concept of free will/free choice, 
> even without the prop of a wise creator-God. You are simply being 
> dogmatic,asserting a claim without evidence. You could argue that 
> people who believe in free will have a burden to prove it exists, but 
> you can't just state like some tin-pot prophet "free will is a 
> delusion!"
>
> Jon
>
>> From: "Bill Irwin" <billi at aloha.net>
>> Reply-To: survivors' reminiscences about Austin Ghetto Daze in the 
>> 60s<austin-ghetto-list at pairlist.net>
>> To: "survivors' reminiscences about Austin Ghetto Daze in the 
>> 60s"<austin-ghetto-list at pairlist.net>
>> Subject: Re: [AGL] reply to Michele's statement
>> Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 09:23:10 -1000
>>
>> Pretty good deconstruction Mike.
>> If you want wisdom you first have to get rid of delusions.  One 
>> delusion
>> that should go first is that one has free will.
>> Aloha
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Michael Eisenstadt" <michaele at ando.pair.com>
>> To: "survivors' reminiscences about Austin Ghetto Daze in the 60s"
>> <austin-ghetto-list at pairlist.net>
>> Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 5:58 AM
>> Subject: [AGL] reply to Michele's statement
>>
>>
>> > Michele,
>> >
>> > You have often spoken to me on this subject but never at such
>> > length. Permit me to reply interlinearly to some of what you've 
>> written.
>> >
>> > >I believe that God (or whatever name you choose) made us
>> > because He/She needed love—that in some way He was lonely
>> > and because He had a need to "see Himself"
>> >
>> > According to Hegel, the attempt "to see Himself/Oneself" is the
>> > ultimate exercise of human consciousness. This suggests to me
>> > that the attributes you have identified as God's are merely
>> > human projections.
>> >
>> > >He placed us in a perfect place where all our needs were met 
>> (without
>> > spilling a drop of blood). He gave us free will—otherwise how 
>> would we
>> > be like Him and what would our love be worth if we didn't choose it?
>> >
>> > Once again, why does free will require a God? Logically, in assuming
>> > the existence of God, you are committing the error of petitio
>> > principii (assuming the conclusion as your starting point).
>> >
>> > Now I know that you will remind me of your personal experiences
>> > with you know who. That solves the petitio principii problem. But
>> > that brings up the veracity of testimonial or testifying. Would 
>> that I
>> > could accept testimony. Testimony is worthless unless confirmed.
>> >
>> > >Then came curiosity. Had things progressed in the way He wanted, we
>> > would have been good, obedient students, matching knowledge with 
>> wisdom
>> > and growing towards oneness with Him.
>> > The Tree of Knowledge was not all about sex, it was about sex and
>> > everything else. Seduced by instant gratification, we 
>> transgressed—not
>> > waiting to learn wisdom as He intended to teach us.
>> >
>> > You are assuming that "seduced by instant gratification" is a bad
>> > thing. You may know this from personal experience. But that is
>> > not my personal experience. I see absolutely no reason why instant
>> > sexual or other gratification is bad.
>> >
>> > As for wisdom which we all crave, to believe that the deity desires
>> > that we pursue it, that too is a human projection, an admirable
>> > one to be sure. There has been a little progress in the human
>> > pursuit of wisdom. A necessary condition was the invention of
>> > writing. Part of our progress towards wisdom consists of
>> > practicing the ascesis of avoiding logical errors. Part of it has
>> > been the realization that received beliefs (about God and on
>> > other subjects) are to be examined closely for possible errors.
>> > Then we can try to think through the issues. If there is no
>> > reason and no evidence for a belief in God (my viewpoint),
>> > it is best abandonned as an impediment to the pursuit of
>> > wisdom.
>> >
>> > That's as far as i got in your letter at this time.
>> >
>> > Mike
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
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