[AGL] reply to Michele's statement

[Bill Irwin]

Pretty good deconstruction Mike.
If you want wisdom you first have to get rid of delusions.  One delusion
that should go first is that one has free will.
Aloha

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Eisenstadt" <michaele at ando.pair.com>
To: "survivors' reminiscences about Austin Ghetto Daze in the 60s"
<austin-ghetto-list at pairlist.net>
Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 5:58 AM
Subject: [AGL] reply to Michele's statement


> Michele,
>
> You have often spoken to me on this subject but never at such
> length. Permit me to reply interlinearly to some of what you've written.
>
> >I believe that God (or whatever name you choose) made us
> because He/She needed love—that in some way He was lonely
> and because He had a need to "see Himself"
>
> According to Hegel, the attempt "to see Himself/Oneself" is the
> ultimate exercise of human consciousness. This suggests to me
> that the attributes you have identified as God's are merely
> human projections.
>
> >He placed us in a perfect place where all our needs were met (without
> spilling a drop of blood). He gave us free will—otherwise how would we
> be like Him and what would our love be worth if we didn't choose it?
>
> Once again, why does free will require a God? Logically, in assuming
> the existence of God, you are committing the error of petitio
> principii (assuming the conclusion as your starting point).
>
> Now I know that you will remind me of your personal experiences
> with you know who. That solves the petitio principii problem. But
> that brings up the veracity of testimonial or testifying. Would that I
> could accept testimony. Testimony is worthless unless confirmed.
>
> >Then came curiosity. Had things progressed in the way He wanted, we
> would have been good, obedient students, matching knowledge with wisdom
> and growing towards oneness with Him.
> The Tree of Knowledge was not all about sex, it was about sex and
> everything else. Seduced by instant gratification, we transgressed—not
> waiting to learn wisdom as He intended to teach us.
>
> You are assuming that "seduced by instant gratification" is a bad
> thing. You may know this from personal experience. But that is
> not my personal experience. I see absolutely no reason why instant
> sexual or other gratification is bad.
>
> As for wisdom which we all crave, to believe that the deity desires
> that we pursue it, that too is a human projection, an admirable
> one to be sure. There has been a little progress in the human
> pursuit of wisdom. A necessary condition was the invention of
> writing. Part of our progress towards wisdom consists of
> practicing the ascesis of avoiding logical errors. Part of it has
> been the realization that received beliefs (about God and on
> other subjects) are to be examined closely for possible errors.
> Then we can try to think through the issues. If there is no
> reason and no evidence for a belief in God (my viewpoint),
> it is best abandonned as an impediment to the pursuit of
> wisdom.
>
> That's as far as i got in your letter at this time.
>
> Mike
>
>
>