[Jacob-list] LGD resources
Gloria Steiger
olgasteig at gmail.com
Sun Sep 30 14:48:29 EDT 2012
Oh thank you for the book recommendation-- also looked at your blog
and love your dog. He's great. :) Interesting that the maremma
traits come out in the cross of pyr / maremma. I can't wait to create
more pasture and grow the farm enough to warrant another one. :D
On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 1:49 PM, Sara Dunham
<thecrazysheeplady at myfavoritesheep.com> wrote:
> The book Livestock Protection Dogs by Orysia Dawydiak and David Sims is a
> very good reference. We have a Pyr/Maremma cross and are very happy with
> him. Have had a couple friends with hip/leg issues with the straight Pyrs
> lately so thinking a cross bred might be good. Each dog is completely
> different and completely fascinating. You do need to be willing to put some
> time in in the beginning to let the dog know "these are our
> chickens/cats/lambs/dogs/kids..and this is how we behave around them." And
> yes, as far as sheep stealing food, we have one very persistent sheep who
> refuses to take no for an answer so had to build our dog The Grahaminator
> 2000 ;-). You can see and read more about Hank on our blog. A couple other
> good blogs are http://altapetestockdogs.blogspot.com/ and
> http://predator-friendly-ranching.blogspot.com/
>
> I was very against having a guard dog for many years, but a lamb kill made
> me come around. We have not had one moment of unhappiness with Hank and
> can't imagine the farm without him. We trust him that much. Oh, something
> we were told, Pyrs are designed to bark bark bark all night as they work to
> keep the boundaries established and the Maremmas are designed to bark as
> needed. We find that to be true. Hank does not bark all night long but
> when he IS barking, there's a good reason.
>
> And something else, older sheep who didn't grow up with a LGD can be pretty
> opinionated. We put Hank in with our flock and they were not happy about
> it. In fact, several of our sheep still act like he's enemy #1. However,
> he'll bark a certain way and they all run for the barn, happy for his
> protection. And then when the coast is clear...back to "hating" him ;-).
> When we brought Hank home (at 10 months old) we gave him a gate to hide
> behind for the first couple of weeks.
>
> Sara
>
> --
> Sara Dunham
> Punkin's Patch
> Cynthiana, Kentucky
> www.myfavoritesheep.com
> http://myfavoritesheep.blogspot.com
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 12:01 PM, <jacob-list-request at jacobsheep.com> wrote:
>>
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>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Re: LGD's (Gloria Steiger)
>> 2. Re: LGD's (Gloria Steiger)
>> 3. Re: LGD (Lorraine Nielsen)
>> 4. Re: LGD's (Cathy Brown)
>> 5. Re: predator question (Carl Fosbrink)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 10:45:51 -0400
>> From: Gloria Steiger <olgasteig at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] LGD's
>> To: Linda <patchworkfibers at windstream.net>
>> Cc: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com, Karen Askounis
>> <kaskounis at threefatesjacobs.com>
>> Message-ID:
>>
>> <CAHG3DAjE+iE4Gq8sM=4-q7imUkAXbuv9jC=e-sPr8yDteF0Lzg at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>>
>> Hagrid was allowed to observe lambing but I did not put him in with
>> the baby lambs without supervision for a week or two. The issues are:
>> you have to protect the DOG from the momma and then her from the dog.
>> The babies tend to be safe because they trigger a protective instinct
>> in the dog. Troubles come if the ewe hurts the dog while defending
>> the babies or if the dog decides the babies are his and need to be
>> protected from the ewe. So you have to supervise for a period of
>> time. I did this by sitting with him on a leash next to the ewe and
>> lambs each day a few times a day, and then when I could not be out
>> there, they were behind a gate right next to him so he could see,
>> sniff, and be right next to everyone without any interactions. He
>> barked like a fiend when she started lambing and brought my hubby
>> running.
>>
>> On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 7:27 AM, Linda <patchworkfibers at windstream.net>
>> wrote:
>> > I love my Pyr. I have some limited experience with other breeds, but the
>> > Pyrs seem to be naturally gentler with their sheep.
>> > We have one Pyr at our leased pasture. He is not supposed to be free to
>> > wander, but it's hard to keep him in. We have sheep on both sides of the
>> > road so he watches both pastures.
>> > We have a donkey here at the house.
>> >
>> > I hope someone will respond to your question on training youngsters.
>> > Linda
>> > On 9/29/2012 5:34 PM, Karen Askounis wrote:
>> >
>> > Now on to the next subject. For those of you who use LGD?s do you have a
>> > breed preference? Do you use one dog with each group (if sheep are
>> > separated
>> > into different pastures) or several dogs that are free to wander the
>> > entire
>> > property? How do you train/condition the youngsters to the sheep before
>> > they
>> > are turned loose with the sheep?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Karen Askounis
>> >
>> > Three Fates Farm
>> >
>> > Crete, IL
>> >
>> > kaskounis at threefatesjacobs.com
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks
>> > Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
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>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks
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>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 10:46:35 -0400
>> From: Gloria Steiger <olgasteig at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] LGD's
>> To: Linda <patchworkfibers at windstream.net>
>> Cc: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com, Karen Askounis
>> <kaskounis at threefatesjacobs.com>
>> Message-ID:
>>
>> <CAHG3DAifV=+_6t4hfeY39dUqxfrR=wvcPLJNY32QgzQn-VmZFA at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>>
>> However, this was his first lambing and he was under a year old. He
>> will become more reliable and savvy as he grows up and will eventually
>> be fine side by side with the ewe when she lambs.
>>
>> On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 10:45 AM, Gloria Steiger <olgasteig at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > Hagrid was allowed to observe lambing but I did not put him in with
>> > the baby lambs without supervision for a week or two. The issues are:
>> > you have to protect the DOG from the momma and then her from the dog.
>> > The babies tend to be safe because they trigger a protective instinct
>> > in the dog. Troubles come if the ewe hurts the dog while defending
>> > the babies or if the dog decides the babies are his and need to be
>> > protected from the ewe. So you have to supervise for a period of
>> > time. I did this by sitting with him on a leash next to the ewe and
>> > lambs each day a few times a day, and then when I could not be out
>> > there, they were behind a gate right next to him so he could see,
>> > sniff, and be right next to everyone without any interactions. He
>> > barked like a fiend when she started lambing and brought my hubby
>> > running.
>> >
>> > On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 7:27 AM, Linda <patchworkfibers at windstream.net>
>> > wrote:
>> >> I love my Pyr. I have some limited experience with other breeds, but
>> >> the
>> >> Pyrs seem to be naturally gentler with their sheep.
>> >> We have one Pyr at our leased pasture. He is not supposed to be free to
>> >> wander, but it's hard to keep him in. We have sheep on both sides of
>> >> the
>> >> road so he watches both pastures.
>> >> We have a donkey here at the house.
>> >>
>> >> I hope someone will respond to your question on training youngsters.
>> >> Linda
>> >> On 9/29/2012 5:34 PM, Karen Askounis wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Now on to the next subject. For those of you who use LGD?s do you have
>> >> a
>> >> breed preference? Do you use one dog with each group (if sheep are
>> >> separated
>> >> into different pastures) or several dogs that are free to wander the
>> >> entire
>> >> property? How do you train/condition the youngsters to the sheep before
>> >> they
>> >> are turned loose with the sheep?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Karen Askounis
>> >>
>> >> Three Fates Farm
>> >>
>> >> Crete, IL
>> >>
>> >> kaskounis at threefatesjacobs.com
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks
>> >> Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
>> >> http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks
>> >> Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
>> >> http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list
>> >>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 07:25:12 -0700
>> From: "Lorraine Nielsen" <fourwinds at gotsky.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] LGD
>> To: "Karen Askounis" <kaskounis at threefatesjacobs.com>
>> Cc: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
>> Message-ID: <20120930072512.B69C317C at m0005297.ppops.net>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
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>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 15:12:12 +0000
>> From: "Cathy Brown" <cathybro at uga.edu>
>> Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] LGD's
>> To: Karen Askounis <kaskounis at threefatesjacobs.com>,
>> "jacob-list at jacobsheep.com" <jacob-list at jacobsheep.com>
>> Message-ID:
>>
>> <7E067504D39DC64BB8FEB8A50673558E565313DA at BY2PRD0210MB368.namprd02.prod.outlook.com>
>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>>
>> I have used Anatolian Shepherds for the past 5 year; first to guard goats
>> and in the last 3 years, sheep. This is the only breed we've used, although
>> Pyrenees are probably the other most commonly used breed. As far as
>> training, the original dog we purchased was born on a goat farm. At 8 weeks
>> of age he went in the barn with our first goat (6 month old buck) - they
>> totally bonded, and even when that buck reached 250 lbs and was scarey to
>> us, he and the dog would play (the buck would toss the dog onto his back
>> gently using his horns). So, from our experiences -
>> 1. keep the dog with the animals you want him to bond to at an early age
>> 2.. realize a puppy will naturally play - some (really an individual
>> thing, some never do) will nip at them quite a bit. If possible, you can
>> put the older chasing puppy (usually a problem at 6 mos to a yr of age) with
>> older animals or your rams - they will teach them the proper behavior. They
>> do grow out of this - they ARE NOT acting like predators. The beauty of LGD
>> breeds is their low "prey instinct" along with their protective nature.
>> People have used shock collars to help "remind" them not to chase. Chickens
>> are a bit trickier - we didn't introduce them early, so our dogs like to
>> play with them by putting a big foot on the chickens when they run -
>> chickens do not survive playing with dogs very long - we have a donkey for
>> our chickens. One note about donkeys - they can be difficult to predict
>> behavior - I know of some donkeys that were fine with adult sheep but killed
>> lambs. One of our LGDs got out one night and we found them in a neighbors
>> goat pasture the next da
>> y - along with their guardian donkey!
>> 3. I was initially troubled by having a dog that never came into the
>> house. I have gotten over that - these dogs seem happy, are very friendly
>> toward people (ideal to have a big dog that is safe around everyone but
>> still scares strangers because of their size, but are really independent.
>> We keep 2 dogs together now, but if you have a single dog that was raised
>> and bonded to sheep, one dog is fine (and maybe less distracted?).
>> 4. You need a good fence - again, an individual dog thing but my feeling
>> is they are less likely to try to escape than Pyr. They are VERY sensitive
>> dogs - we put a single strand of electric line at the bottom of a fence for
>> one dog that was getting out - after touching the wire she quickly stopped
>> trying that, and has decided not to leave (even tho the fence is no longer
>> electric)
>> 5. You can see some pixs of our dogs on our website (sadly in need of
>> updating - ignore that) www.canoelakefarm.com<http://www.canoelakefarm.com>
>> We no longer sell LGDs, but you can at least see and read a little about
>> them.
>>
>> Hope this helps.
>>
>> Cathy Brown
>> Canoe Lake Farm
>> Georgia
>> ________________________________
>> From: jacob-list-bounces at jacobsheep.com
>> [jacob-list-bounces at jacobsheep.com] on behalf of Karen Askounis
>> [kaskounis at threefatesjacobs.com]
>> Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2012 5:34 PM
>> To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
>> Subject: [Jacob-list] LGD's
>>
>> Now on to the next subject. For those of you who use LGD?s do you have a
>> breed preference? Do you use one dog with each group (if sheep are separated
>> into different pastures) or several dogs that are free to wander the entire
>> property? How do you train/condition the youngsters to the sheep before they
>> are turned loose with the sheep?
>>
>> Karen Askounis
>> Three Fates Farm
>> Crete, IL
>> kaskounis at threefatesjacobs.com
>>
>> -------------- next part --------------
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>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 5
>> Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 12:01:39 -0400
>> From: "Carl Fosbrink" <fourhornfarm at frontier.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] predator question
>> To: "Linda" <patchworkfibers at windstream.net>, "marguerite van beek"
>> <mvanbeek7 at gmail.com>
>> Cc: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com, Neal Grose <nlgrose at yadtel.net>, Karen
>> Askounis <kaskounis at threefatesjacobs.com>
>> Message-ID: <7867EA6479F04C9AAD8EFCAE7E076678 at Home>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> Linda,
>>
>> We have had some reports of badgers here now and I would not be
>> surprised if the DNR didn't turn those loose. Of course they always deny
>> doing so, but no one would keep one as a pet and turn it loose and there
>> aren't any close so they wouldn't migrate in here. I live just two miles
>> from a wildlife refuge and a badger was run over on the highway next to it.
>> I love wildlife, but this county is too populated for some of these
>> critters and they were eliminated in the past because they were a problem.
>> DNR doesn't seem smart enough to understand that they are re-introducing
>> problems for people with livestock. Of course farmers are only 1% of the
>> population now so they probably just don't care.
>>
>> Carl
>>
>>
>> From: Linda
>> Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2012 5:24 PM
>> To: marguerite van beek
>> Cc: Carl Fosbrink ; jacob-list at jacobsheep.com ; Neal Grose ; Karen
>> Askounis
>> Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] predator question
>>
>>
>> Kinda scary to think what they are going to bring in to kill the mountain
>> lions!
>> Linda
>>
>> On 9/29/2012 5:04 PM, marguerite van beek wrote:
>>
>> Carl
>>
>>
>> Yes that is what they did here in NJ they got some coyotes from AZ to
>> help curb the deer population. Now they are out of control, breeding with
>> dogs and very hard to kill. So I heard from a State employee they released
>> mountain lions to kill the coyotes. NJ playing mother nature at its best.
>>
>>
>> Peg
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Sep 29, 2012 at 4:38 PM, Carl Fosbrink
>> <fourhornfarm at frontier.com> wrote:
>>
>> It is not unusual for the department of fish and game to deny that
>> certain animals exist. It is because they are the ones that turned them
>> loose. Here in Southern Indiana they were the ones that turned the first
>> coyotes loose and now they are everywhere. We also have reports of mountain
>> lions seen eating on road kill deer. I have a 4 ft. fence with electric over
>> the top and around the bottom and I thought that would keep dogs and coyotes
>> out until I saw a coyote that had gotten into the sheep clear it all with
>> one easy jump. Luckily he didn't kill any sheep. We also have Bobcats, but
>> they would not be a threat on adult sheep.
>>
>>
>> From: Neal Grose
>> Sent: Friday, September 28, 2012 4:55 PM
>> To: marguerite van beek ; Richard and Susan
>> Cc: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com ; Karen Askounis
>> Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] predator question
>>
>>
>> Well, I and several other people here in our foothills NC community
>> have indeed seen a Mountain lion, but he seemed to be moving through to
>> somewhere else. The wildlife agent confirmed the description and said that
>> they think many of these are released "pets" (which, by the way, are not
>> illegal to keep since they are no longer considered "native wildlife", and
>> if your county does not specifically prohibit keeping of exotic animals.)
>> Small ears, tail as long as the rest of the body, and a "loose
>> jointed" gait on the front shoulders, they are hard to confuse with a dog or
>> small bear. Plus I found footprints.
>> Neal Grose
>>
>> From: marguerite van beek
>> Sent: Friday, September 28, 2012 3:02 PM
>> To: Richard and Susan
>> Cc: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com ; Karen Askounis
>> Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] predator question
>>
>> Susan
>>
>> They say the same thing about Mountain Lions over here in NJ. They
>> don't exist, yet they have many reported sightings throughout NJ. Our vet
>> several yrs ago and a few miles from our farm went out on a emergency call
>> for a reported attack on two horses. The State kept stating it was a bear
>> attack, the vet who was from S. Dakota said you are sadly mistaken this was
>> done by a mountain Lion (horses had claw marks down their hind end) then
>> they said that he had to keep quiet about this and they did ended up
>> catching a breeding pair. But they still say they don't exist. You can't
>> protect your sheep from a mountain lion almost impossible.
>>
>> Peggy
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 2:38 PM, Richard and Susan <stcroft at ptd.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Here in southeastern Pennsylvania an occasional coyote attack on
>> sheep will occur. A few yrs. ago a farmer lost several adult ewes to a
>> group of coyotes at a location not far from us - and we have heard coyotes
>> calling at night but have never lost any sheep. Interestingly, here
>> throughout the state there are many reported sightings of mountain lions but
>> the Pennsylvania Game Commission is adamant that they don't exist. We have
>> never seen one or had a problem - however, a farmer only a few miles from us
>> occasionally sees a mountain lion drinking from his pond. Upstate the
>> mountain folks who know the woods like the "backs of their hands" are
>> equally adamant that they repeatedly see mountain lions - which really are
>> not easy to confuse with other wild feline types in our State - our bobcats
>> are quite a bit smaller with no tail, etc. All that to say that any
>> shepherd or farmer who complains to our state's Game Commission of a
>> mountain lion killing will not receive a lo
>> t of support - since they don't exist!
>>
>>
>>
>> A few years ago we had an adult ewe killed by a neighbor's Siberian
>> Husky - the dog was not aggressive to humans but sheep brought out his
>> primal instincts - and in that situation the dog was interested only in the
>> chase and the kill - he did not tear open the carcass or eat anything
>> whatsoever. He also wounded a ewe lamb so severely she had to be
>> euthanized. Our local police advised us that our State laws permit us to
>> shoot on sight any animal that is killing out livestock. This particular
>> dog was a family pet, very sweet to humans and a nice dog - but the State
>> Dog Catcher required that they relinquish ownership and the husky was put
>> into a husky rescue - and hopefully he ended up living somewhere far from
>> sheep!!
>>
>>
>>
>> Sue Martin
>>
>> Stonecroft
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: jacob-list-bounces at jacobsheep.com
>> [mailto:jacob-list-bounces at jacobsheep.com] On Behalf Of Karen Askounis
>> Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 11:41 PM
>> To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
>> Subject: [Jacob-list] predator question
>>
>>
>>
>> For those of you who have lost sheep to coyotes is it common to have
>> almost nothing remaining after the attack? I have lost two ram lambs (one at
>> a time) - the first one simply was gone without a trace! No blood, no wool,
>> no wool or hair over or under fences - nothing. The second one - as is
>> usually the case - my most favorite sheep of all time L - found one piece of
>> hide, some bits of wool, his tail, no blood anywhere in pasture, again no
>> wool or hair on any exterior fences. These were ram lambs about 6 months
>> old. They were in with a donkey. Not sure if I should be mad at the donkey
>> or happy he kept losses to one lamb each time. This pasture had a hot wire
>> across the top but no lower predator hot wire (until last weekend, after the
>> fact of course). There were a few spots where the ground had washed away a
>> bit under the fence leaving some space under the fence where I figure they
>> got in. Does this sound like a pack of coyotes or should I be looking for
>> something else?
>> We are in north eastern Illinois. Not sure what other predators to be
>> thinking of.
>>
>>
>>
>> On a slightly different subject - does anyone think sheep with
>> un-docked tails are easier for predators to catch??
>>
>>
>>
>> Karen Askounis
>>
>> Three Fates Farm
>>
>> Crete, IL
>>
>> kaskounis at threefatesjacobs.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks
>> Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
>> http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>>
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>> _______________________________________________
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>> --
>> Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep
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