[Jacob-list] LGD resources
Sara Dunham
thecrazysheeplady at myfavoritesheep.com
Sun Sep 30 13:49:50 EDT 2012
The book Livestock Protection Dogs by Orysia Dawydiak and David Sims is a
very good reference. We have a Pyr/Maremma cross and are very happy with
him. Have had a couple friends with hip/leg issues with the straight Pyrs
lately so thinking a cross bred might be good. Each dog is completely
different and completely fascinating. You do need to be willing to put
some time in in the beginning to let the dog know "these are our
chickens/cats/lambs/dogs/kids..and this is how we behave around them." And
yes, as far as sheep stealing food, we have one very persistent sheep who
refuses to take no for an answer so had to build our dog The Grahaminator
2000 <http://myfavoritesheep.blogspot.com/2012/02/grahaminator-2000.html>;-).
You can see and read more about Hank
on our blog <http://myfavoritesheep.blogspot.com/search/label/Hank>. A
couple other good blogs are http://altapetestockdogs.blogspot.com/ and
http://predator-friendly-ranching.blogspot.com/
I was very against having a guard dog for many years, but a lamb kill made
me come around. We have not had one moment of unhappiness with Hank and
can't imagine the farm without him. We trust him that much. Oh, something
we were told, Pyrs are designed to bark bark bark all night as they work to
keep the boundaries established and the Maremmas are designed to bark as
needed. We find that to be true. Hank does not bark all night long but
when he IS barking, there's a good reason.
And something else, older sheep who didn't grow up with a LGD can be pretty
opinionated. We put Hank in with our flock and they were not happy about
it. In fact, several of our sheep still act like he's enemy #1. However,
he'll bark a certain way and they all run for the barn, happy for his
protection. And then when the coast is clear...back to "hating" him ;-).
When we brought Hank home (at 10 months old) we gave him a gate to hide
behind for the first couple of weeks.
Sara
--
Sara Dunham
Punkin's Patch
Cynthiana, Kentucky
www.myfavoritesheep.com
http://myfavoritesheep.blogspot.com
On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 12:01 PM, <jacob-list-request at jacobsheep.com> wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: LGD's (Gloria Steiger)
> 2. Re: LGD's (Gloria Steiger)
> 3. Re: LGD (Lorraine Nielsen)
> 4. Re: LGD's (Cathy Brown)
> 5. Re: predator question (Carl Fosbrink)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 10:45:51 -0400
> From: Gloria Steiger <olgasteig at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] LGD's
> To: Linda <patchworkfibers at windstream.net>
> Cc: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com, Karen Askounis
> <kaskounis at threefatesjacobs.com>
> Message-ID:
> <CAHG3DAjE+iE4Gq8sM=4-q7imUkAXbuv9jC=
> e-sPr8yDteF0Lzg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>
> Hagrid was allowed to observe lambing but I did not put him in with
> the baby lambs without supervision for a week or two. The issues are:
> you have to protect the DOG from the momma and then her from the dog.
> The babies tend to be safe because they trigger a protective instinct
> in the dog. Troubles come if the ewe hurts the dog while defending
> the babies or if the dog decides the babies are his and need to be
> protected from the ewe. So you have to supervise for a period of
> time. I did this by sitting with him on a leash next to the ewe and
> lambs each day a few times a day, and then when I could not be out
> there, they were behind a gate right next to him so he could see,
> sniff, and be right next to everyone without any interactions. He
> barked like a fiend when she started lambing and brought my hubby
> running.
>
> On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 7:27 AM, Linda <patchworkfibers at windstream.net>
> wrote:
> > I love my Pyr. I have some limited experience with other breeds, but the
> > Pyrs seem to be naturally gentler with their sheep.
> > We have one Pyr at our leased pasture. He is not supposed to be free to
> > wander, but it's hard to keep him in. We have sheep on both sides of the
> > road so he watches both pastures.
> > We have a donkey here at the house.
> >
> > I hope someone will respond to your question on training youngsters.
> > Linda
> > On 9/29/2012 5:34 PM, Karen Askounis wrote:
> >
> > Now on to the next subject. For those of you who use LGD?s do you have a
> > breed preference? Do you use one dog with each group (if sheep are
> separated
> > into different pastures) or several dogs that are free to wander the
> entire
> > property? How do you train/condition the youngsters to the sheep before
> they
> > are turned loose with the sheep?
> >
> >
> >
> > Karen Askounis
> >
> > Three Fates Farm
> >
> > Crete, IL
> >
> > kaskounis at threefatesjacobs.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks
> > Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
> > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list
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> >
> > --
> > Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks
> > Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
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>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 10:46:35 -0400
> From: Gloria Steiger <olgasteig at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] LGD's
> To: Linda <patchworkfibers at windstream.net>
> Cc: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com, Karen Askounis
> <kaskounis at threefatesjacobs.com>
> Message-ID:
> <CAHG3DAifV=+_6t4hfeY39dUqxfrR=
> wvcPLJNY32QgzQn-VmZFA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>
> However, this was his first lambing and he was under a year old. He
> will become more reliable and savvy as he grows up and will eventually
> be fine side by side with the ewe when she lambs.
>
> On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 10:45 AM, Gloria Steiger <olgasteig at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Hagrid was allowed to observe lambing but I did not put him in with
> > the baby lambs without supervision for a week or two. The issues are:
> > you have to protect the DOG from the momma and then her from the dog.
> > The babies tend to be safe because they trigger a protective instinct
> > in the dog. Troubles come if the ewe hurts the dog while defending
> > the babies or if the dog decides the babies are his and need to be
> > protected from the ewe. So you have to supervise for a period of
> > time. I did this by sitting with him on a leash next to the ewe and
> > lambs each day a few times a day, and then when I could not be out
> > there, they were behind a gate right next to him so he could see,
> > sniff, and be right next to everyone without any interactions. He
> > barked like a fiend when she started lambing and brought my hubby
> > running.
> >
> > On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 7:27 AM, Linda <patchworkfibers at windstream.net>
> wrote:
> >> I love my Pyr. I have some limited experience with other breeds, but the
> >> Pyrs seem to be naturally gentler with their sheep.
> >> We have one Pyr at our leased pasture. He is not supposed to be free to
> >> wander, but it's hard to keep him in. We have sheep on both sides of the
> >> road so he watches both pastures.
> >> We have a donkey here at the house.
> >>
> >> I hope someone will respond to your question on training youngsters.
> >> Linda
> >> On 9/29/2012 5:34 PM, Karen Askounis wrote:
> >>
> >> Now on to the next subject. For those of you who use LGD?s do you have a
> >> breed preference? Do you use one dog with each group (if sheep are
> separated
> >> into different pastures) or several dogs that are free to wander the
> entire
> >> property? How do you train/condition the youngsters to the sheep before
> they
> >> are turned loose with the sheep?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Karen Askounis
> >>
> >> Three Fates Farm
> >>
> >> Crete, IL
> >>
> >> kaskounis at threefatesjacobs.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks
> >> Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
> >> http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks
> >> Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
> >> http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list
> >>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 07:25:12 -0700
> From: "Lorraine Nielsen" <fourwinds at gotsky.com>
> Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] LGD
> To: "Karen Askounis" <kaskounis at threefatesjacobs.com>
> Cc: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
> Message-ID: <20120930072512.B69C317C at m0005297.ppops.net>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 15:12:12 +0000
> From: "Cathy Brown" <cathybro at uga.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] LGD's
> To: Karen Askounis <kaskounis at threefatesjacobs.com>,
> "jacob-list at jacobsheep.com" <jacob-list at jacobsheep.com>
> Message-ID:
> <
> 7E067504D39DC64BB8FEB8A50673558E565313DA at BY2PRD0210MB368.namprd02.prod.outlook.com
> >
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
> I have used Anatolian Shepherds for the past 5 year; first to guard goats
> and in the last 3 years, sheep. This is the only breed we've used,
> although Pyrenees are probably the other most commonly used breed. As far
> as training, the original dog we purchased was born on a goat farm. At 8
> weeks of age he went in the barn with our first goat (6 month old buck) -
> they totally bonded, and even when that buck reached 250 lbs and was scarey
> to us, he and the dog would play (the buck would toss the dog onto his back
> gently using his horns). So, from our experiences -
> 1. keep the dog with the animals you want him to bond to at an early age
> 2.. realize a puppy will naturally play - some (really an individual
> thing, some never do) will nip at them quite a bit. If possible, you can
> put the older chasing puppy (usually a problem at 6 mos to a yr of age)
> with older animals or your rams - they will teach them the proper behavior.
> They do grow out of this - they ARE NOT acting like predators. The beauty
> of LGD breeds is their low "prey instinct" along with their protective
> nature. People have used shock collars to help "remind" them not to chase.
> Chickens are a bit trickier - we didn't introduce them early, so our dogs
> like to play with them by putting a big foot on the chickens when they run
> - chickens do not survive playing with dogs very long - we have a donkey
> for our chickens. One note about donkeys - they can be difficult to
> predict behavior - I know of some donkeys that were fine with adult sheep
> but killed lambs. One of our LGDs got out one night and we found them in a
> neighbors goat pasture the next da
> y - along with their guardian donkey!
> 3. I was initially troubled by having a dog that never came into the
> house. I have gotten over that - these dogs seem happy, are very friendly
> toward people (ideal to have a big dog that is safe around everyone but
> still scares strangers because of their size, but are really independent.
> We keep 2 dogs together now, but if you have a single dog that was raised
> and bonded to sheep, one dog is fine (and maybe less distracted?).
> 4. You need a good fence - again, an individual dog thing but my feeling
> is they are less likely to try to escape than Pyr. They are VERY sensitive
> dogs - we put a single strand of electric line at the bottom of a fence for
> one dog that was getting out - after touching the wire she quickly stopped
> trying that, and has decided not to leave (even tho the fence is no longer
> electric)
> 5. You can see some pixs of our dogs on our website (sadly in need of
> updating - ignore that) www.canoelakefarm.com<http://www.canoelakefarm.com>
> We no longer sell LGDs, but you can at least see and read a little about
> them.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Cathy Brown
> Canoe Lake Farm
> Georgia
> ________________________________
> From: jacob-list-bounces at jacobsheep.com [jacob-list-bounces at jacobsheep.com]
> on behalf of Karen Askounis [kaskounis at threefatesjacobs.com]
> Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2012 5:34 PM
> To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
> Subject: [Jacob-list] LGD's
>
> Now on to the next subject. For those of you who use LGD?s do you have a
> breed preference? Do you use one dog with each group (if sheep are
> separated into different pastures) or several dogs that are free to wander
> the entire property? How do you train/condition the youngsters to the sheep
> before they are turned loose with the sheep?
>
> Karen Askounis
> Three Fates Farm
> Crete, IL
> kaskounis at threefatesjacobs.com
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 12:01:39 -0400
> From: "Carl Fosbrink" <fourhornfarm at frontier.com>
> Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] predator question
> To: "Linda" <patchworkfibers at windstream.net>, "marguerite van beek"
> <mvanbeek7 at gmail.com>
> Cc: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com, Neal Grose <nlgrose at yadtel.net>, Karen
> Askounis <kaskounis at threefatesjacobs.com>
> Message-ID: <7867EA6479F04C9AAD8EFCAE7E076678 at Home>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Linda,
>
> We have had some reports of badgers here now and I would not be
> surprised if the DNR didn't turn those loose. Of course they always deny
> doing so, but no one would keep one as a pet and turn it loose and there
> aren't any close so they wouldn't migrate in here. I live just two miles
> from a wildlife refuge and a badger was run over on the highway next to it.
> I love wildlife, but this county is too populated for some of these
> critters and they were eliminated in the past because they were a problem.
> DNR doesn't seem smart enough to understand that they are re-introducing
> problems for people with livestock. Of course farmers are only 1% of the
> population now so they probably just don't care.
>
> Carl
>
>
> From: Linda
> Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2012 5:24 PM
> To: marguerite van beek
> Cc: Carl Fosbrink ; jacob-list at jacobsheep.com ; Neal Grose ; Karen
> Askounis
> Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] predator question
>
>
> Kinda scary to think what they are going to bring in to kill the mountain
> lions!
> Linda
>
> On 9/29/2012 5:04 PM, marguerite van beek wrote:
>
> Carl
>
>
> Yes that is what they did here in NJ they got some coyotes from AZ to
> help curb the deer population. Now they are out of control, breeding with
> dogs and very hard to kill. So I heard from a State employee they released
> mountain lions to kill the coyotes. NJ playing mother nature at its best.
>
>
> Peg
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 29, 2012 at 4:38 PM, Carl Fosbrink <
> fourhornfarm at frontier.com> wrote:
>
> It is not unusual for the department of fish and game to deny that
> certain animals exist. It is because they are the ones that turned them
> loose. Here in Southern Indiana they were the ones that turned the first
> coyotes loose and now they are everywhere. We also have reports of mountain
> lions seen eating on road kill deer. I have a 4 ft. fence with electric
> over the top and around the bottom and I thought that would keep dogs and
> coyotes out until I saw a coyote that had gotten into the sheep clear it
> all with one easy jump. Luckily he didn't kill any sheep. We also have
> Bobcats, but they would not be a threat on adult sheep.
>
>
> From: Neal Grose
> Sent: Friday, September 28, 2012 4:55 PM
> To: marguerite van beek ; Richard and Susan
> Cc: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com ; Karen Askounis
> Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] predator question
>
>
> Well, I and several other people here in our foothills NC community
> have indeed seen a Mountain lion, but he seemed to be moving through to
> somewhere else. The wildlife agent confirmed the description and said that
> they think many of these are released "pets" (which, by the way, are not
> illegal to keep since they are no longer considered "native wildlife", and
> if your county does not specifically prohibit keeping of exotic animals.)
> Small ears, tail as long as the rest of the body, and a "loose
> jointed" gait on the front shoulders, they are hard to confuse with a dog
> or small bear. Plus I found footprints.
> Neal Grose
>
> From: marguerite van beek
> Sent: Friday, September 28, 2012 3:02 PM
> To: Richard and Susan
> Cc: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com ; Karen Askounis
> Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] predator question
>
> Susan
>
> They say the same thing about Mountain Lions over here in NJ. They
> don't exist, yet they have many reported sightings throughout NJ. Our vet
> several yrs ago and a few miles from our farm went out on a emergency call
> for a reported attack on two horses. The State kept stating it was a bear
> attack, the vet who was from S. Dakota said you are sadly mistaken this was
> done by a mountain Lion (horses had claw marks down their hind end) then
> they said that he had to keep quiet about this and they did ended up
> catching a breeding pair. But they still say they don't exist. You can't
> protect your sheep from a mountain lion almost impossible.
>
> Peggy
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 2:38 PM, Richard and Susan <stcroft at ptd.net>
> wrote:
>
> Here in southeastern Pennsylvania an occasional coyote attack on
> sheep will occur. A few yrs. ago a farmer lost several adult ewes to a
> group of coyotes at a location not far from us - and we have heard coyotes
> calling at night but have never lost any sheep. Interestingly, here
> throughout the state there are many reported sightings of mountain lions
> but the Pennsylvania Game Commission is adamant that they don't exist. We
> have never seen one or had a problem - however, a farmer only a few miles
> from us occasionally sees a mountain lion drinking from his pond. Upstate
> the mountain folks who know the woods like the "backs of their hands" are
> equally adamant that they repeatedly see mountain lions - which really are
> not easy to confuse with other wild feline types in our State - our bobcats
> are quite a bit smaller with no tail, etc. All that to say that any
> shepherd or farmer who complains to our state's Game Commission of a
> mountain lion killing will not receive a lo
> t of support - since they don't exist!
>
>
>
> A few years ago we had an adult ewe killed by a neighbor's Siberian
> Husky - the dog was not aggressive to humans but sheep brought out his
> primal instincts - and in that situation the dog was interested only in the
> chase and the kill - he did not tear open the carcass or eat anything
> whatsoever. He also wounded a ewe lamb so severely she had to be
> euthanized. Our local police advised us that our State laws permit us to
> shoot on sight any animal that is killing out livestock. This particular
> dog was a family pet, very sweet to humans and a nice dog - but the State
> Dog Catcher required that they relinquish ownership and the husky was put
> into a husky rescue - and hopefully he ended up living somewhere far from
> sheep!!
>
>
>
> Sue Martin
>
> Stonecroft
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: jacob-list-bounces at jacobsheep.com [mailto:
> jacob-list-bounces at jacobsheep.com] On Behalf Of Karen Askounis
> Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 11:41 PM
> To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
> Subject: [Jacob-list] predator question
>
>
>
> For those of you who have lost sheep to coyotes is it common to have
> almost nothing remaining after the attack? I have lost two ram lambs (one
> at a time) - the first one simply was gone without a trace! No blood, no
> wool, no wool or hair over or under fences - nothing. The second one - as
> is usually the case - my most favorite sheep of all time L - found one
> piece of hide, some bits of wool, his tail, no blood anywhere in pasture,
> again no wool or hair on any exterior fences. These were ram lambs about 6
> months old. They were in with a donkey. Not sure if I should be mad at the
> donkey or happy he kept losses to one lamb each time. This pasture had a
> hot wire across the top but no lower predator hot wire (until last weekend,
> after the fact of course). There were a few spots where the ground had
> washed away a bit under the fence leaving some space under the fence where
> I figure they got in. Does this sound like a pack of coyotes or should I be
> looking for something else?
> We are in north eastern Illinois. Not sure what other predators to be
> thinking of.
>
>
>
> On a slightly different subject - does anyone think sheep with
> un-docked tails are easier for predators to catch??
>
>
>
> Karen Askounis
>
> Three Fates Farm
>
> Crete, IL
>
> kaskounis at threefatesjacobs.com
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks
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>
>
>
>
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> _______________________________________________
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