[Jacob-list] lilac

[Linda]

Yes, the chocolate color remains on the face and legs. I read an article 
by Dr. Sponenberg about differences in the color between leg markings 
and fleece. I was specifically interested in sheep that have brown 
fleeces, but have black leg/face markings. According to Dr. S, if the 
leg markings are black, the sheep is black and the color difference in 
the fleece has to do with some modifying gene or possibly an 
environmental factor such as a mineral deficiency - not the actual color 
gene which is indicated by the color of the leg markings. Other people 
who have done extensive color research mention the same idea.
One of the fleece samples I am sending you is from Dune. It is 
definitely brown.
Linda.

On 4/1/2012 3:06 PM, Carl Fosbrink wrote:

> *All information helps to understand where the colors might have come 

> from. I have Hardy Hill and an early ram and ewe I had were from Sue 

> Thaxton by way of Edd Lanham and I also have Maverick and a ram from 

> the Twigg flock and had a ram Sweetgrass Reason that I got from Luke 

> and several ewes came from Mary Spahr and I have not had that color 

> occur in my lambs so I am wondering why I haven't. This chocolate 

> color is pretty rare. When the fleece fades to gray does the chocolate 

> color remain on the face and legs?*

>

> *From:* Peg Bostwick <mailto:peg at sweetgrass-jacobs.com>

> *Sent:* Sunday, April 01, 2012 12:45 PM

> *To:* 'Carl Fosbrink' <mailto:fourhornfarm at frontier.com> ; 'Linda' 

> <mailto:patchworkfibers at windstream.net>

> *Cc:* jacob-list at jacobsheep.com <mailto:jacob-list at jacobsheep.com>

> *Subject:* RE: [Jacob-list] lilac

>

> Hi, Carl.   I had to think about it... but most of the lilacs that I 

> had in the past went back one way or another to Sue Thaxton's sheep, 

> maybe some of Mary Spahr's, and Luke Hardy's.  But one of my Fieldwood 

> ewes seemed to be lilac factored as well...

>

> Vickie Alber had a BEAUTIFUL lilac ram -- 2 horned -- named Alber's 

> Mathias.    I had two of his son's, Alber's Norman and Alber's 

> Chaucer.   Both were black and white but had lilac lambs.   Mathias' 

> sire was Raspberryshire Tutankamen (sp?) -- his owner had just a few 

> Jacobs but nice ones.   Can't recall where she got her stock, but I'm 

> thinking the same lines -- Luke, Vickie Alber (who had some from Sue 

> Thaxton, some from Francis Weaver Grill, some from a breeder in 

> Ontario...).   Early on, I had a ram named Hadrack from Neil Kentner 

> that was sired by a Sue Thaxton ram, and from a Prairie Marie ewe.  

> Hadrack was also lilac factored.

>

> Don't know if all that helps... Vickie's "Mathias" was brownish as I 

> recall.  Put PERFECT fleeces on all of his lambs...    Peg

>

> *Peg **Bostwick***

>

> peg at sweetgrass-jacobs.com <mailto:peg at sweetgrass-jacobs.com>

>

> 517-626-6981

>

> *From:*Carl Fosbrink [mailto:fourhornfarm at frontier.com]

> *Sent:* Sunday, April 01, 2012 10:50 AM

> *To:* Peg Bostwick; 'Linda'

> *Cc:* jacob-list at jacobsheep.com

> *Subject:* Re: [Jacob-list] lilac

>

> Thanks Peg. What is the pedigree on the Jacobs you have or have had 

> that have this color of fleece? It makes me wonder why I have never 

> had this occur in any of the lambs I have had born here. The one ewe I 

> got from Carl Fredericks was a darker blue/gray as a lamb than the 

> lilacs I have had before and the ones I got from Shannon. The ones I 

> got from Shannon have pedigrees that go back to the Maverick lines as 

> do a lot of my flock, but of course they have other lines in their 

> pedigrees also. These ewes and my lilacs are all a lighter blue/gray.

>

> *From:*Peg Bostwick <mailto:peg at sweetgrass-jacobs.com>

>

> *Sent:*Saturday, March 31, 2012 9:10 PM

>

> *To:*'Linda' <mailto:patchworkfibers at windstream.net> ; 'Carl Fosbrink' 

> <mailto:fourhornfarm at frontier.com>

>

> *Cc:*jacob-list at jacobsheep.com <mailto:jacob-list at jacobsheep.com>

>

> *Subject:*RE: [Jacob-list] lilac

>

> Carl, Linda, et al....  I've had some lilacs in the past that I would 

> call more light brown (taupe?) than gray as lambs, but my experience 

> has been like Linda's -- they tend to gray and "fade" when fairly 

> young.   I have sort of thought the ideal lilac would be one that 

> really held its color.

>

> Carl -- somewhere I might have some old lilac roving -- mostly from 

> lambs -- that is clearly a _light_ brown (to my eye).  If I can find 

> it I'll send you and Linda both some.   On the other hand, I have not 

> seen a lilac Jacob fleece that is as true, darker brown as some of the 

> morrit (spelling?) fleeces that are for sale with other breeding... 

> (more a corriedale type).

>

> Peg

>

> *Peg **Bostwick***

>

> peg at sweetgrass-jacobs.com <mailto:peg at sweetgrass-jacobs.com>

>

> 517-626-6981

>

> *From:*jacob-list-bounces at jacobsheep.com 

> <mailto:jacob-list-bounces at jacobsheep.com> 

> [mailto:jacob-list-bounces at jacobsheep.com] 

> <mailto:[mailto:jacob-list-bounces at jacobsheep.com]> *On Behalf Of *Linda

> *Sent:* Saturday, March 31, 2012 5:50 PM

> *To:* Carl Fosbrink

> *Cc:* jacob-list at jacobsheep.com <mailto:jacob-list at jacobsheep.com>

> *Subject:* Re: [Jacob-list] lilac

>

> Carl,

> I'm sending you some fleece samples. I find that I get good chocolate 

> fleece and yarn from the first shearing. After that, the color tends 

> to fade and gray - different rates of graying for different sheep. I 

> see the same thing in some blacks.  If the first shearing is chocolate 

> and successive shearings are more gray, I tend to think that early 

> graying (or some other modifier or maybe diet?) plays a part in the 

> color change. Legs and face are hair, not wool. Perhaps that has 

> something to do with the differences in color we see between 

> peripheral markings and fleece. I don't know. It's an interesting subject.

>

> Linda  .

>

> On 3/31/2012 3:25 PM, Carl Fosbrink wrote:

>

> I agree with Linda on several points and we have discussed lilacs 

> before. I have been experimenting with lilac to lilac and lilac to b&w 

> matings for a few years now. I have always had some lilacs in my flock 

> from the very beginning. All of my lilac to lilac matings have 

> produced lilac lambs. What I refer to as lilac is the blue/gray color 

> although some are darker and some lighter shades of that color. There 

> seems to be differences of opinion as to what is lilac. I have been 

> told there are chocolate lilacs and Linda has been told that what is 

> considered chocolate are the ones that breed true. My blue/gray lilacs 

> breed true. To me what would be considered a chocolate lilac would be 

> a Jacob that has chocolate color on face and legs and a fleece that is 

> brown all the way to the skin. I will not say there is no such color, 

> but that I have never seen one in person. Maybe we are just dealing 

> with a difference in thinking as to what is lilac color. I do know 

> that what I call lilac is what some people call chocolate lilac. I 

> have seen a lot of lilac Jacobs and they are all what I would call the 

> blue/gray lilac color. I have bred several lilacs over the years and 

> have gotten a lilac ewe from Carl Fredericks from WI. and lilac ewes 

> from Shannon Phifer from OR.to get unrelated lilacs for my 

> experiment and those ewes were the same blue/gray color that have been 

> born here and that I have seen elsewhere and have bred true  when 

> mated to my lilacs. I feel strongly that if there is a true chocolate 

> lilac that it should be registered as a chocolate instead of a lilac. 

> If there is anyone who has a true chocolate lilac out there please 

> send me photos of face and legs and fleece. I would love to see it. If 

> we are just experiencing a difference in how we interpret the same 

> color that is a lot easier to deal with.

>

> *From:*Linda <mailto:patchworkfibers at windstream.net>

>

> *Sent:*Friday, March 30, 2012 8:56 PM

>

> *To:*Betty Berlenbach <mailto:lambfarm at tds.net>

>

> *Cc:*jacob-list at jacobsheep.com <mailto:jacob-list at jacobsheep.com>

>

> *Subject:*Re: [Jacob-list] lilac

>

> That's the opposite of what I see in my lilac lambs. The body color at 

> birth looks black, but the facial color is what tells me the lamb is 

> lilac. Leg markings often appear black, but eventually start to show 

> browning. Dr. Sponenberg wrote an article about various modifying 

> genes that affect the color, but are not color genes - early graying, 

> roaning, tolerance to sun, etc. I wonder if some of these modifying 

> genes might account for the difference between chocolate and blue 

> lilacs.I would be very interested to hear more about Dr. S's report at 

> the AGM.

>

> Sheep that are not a traditional black have been registered as lilac. 

> If we accept that lilac is recessive, lilacs bred together should 

> always produce lilacs. This has not happened with some sheep 

> registered as lilac. Either our definition of lilac or our 

> understanding of the genetics of lilacs is flawed.

>

> Linda

>

>

>

> On 3/30/2012 6:46 AM, Betty Berlenbach wrote:

>

> I don't have a lot of experience with lilac, but I've had a question 

> asked of me.  I know that occasionally, I will have a lamb that looks 

> black, but when it dries off, in the light, it is very dark grey, with 

> that telltale "halo" of lighter color around the eyes and blue eyes. 

> Still, it is not the blue=lilac/light grey, blue eyed color from birth 

> that I've seen.  In the dark grey type, the head and leg markings seem 

> to remain black, though the body color is very dark grey. AND, I've 

> heard people talk about chocolate brown lilac.  So, is "lilac" another 

> word for "not-black" or what?  The guide book/breed standard, unless 

> I"ve missed it, doesn't talk about these variations.  I recall Phil 

> Sponenberg, way long ago at a N.J. AGM bring up the thought that there 

> were two jacob blacks, one dominant to the other, both dominant over 

> regular ol' white sheep white.  No idea whether that was something 

> others observed and what difference it made or why he thought there 

> were two.  So, Fred and others, thoughts?

>

>

>

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