[Jacob-list] 2H/4H

[hobbyknobfarm]

This is interesting discussion. I have to say that large 4H rams can be 
intimidating especially to potential new breeders or people that may want to 
interact with their sheep and the public. I personally do not want the 
Jacob's to be the ones that are considered the "freaks" and the ones that, 
although they get attention, just cause the reaction of "OMG". It does allow 
for an  opportunity for education about the breed. I actually bought a 2H 
ram this past year and will be using him for breeding. He has very nice 
fleece and markings and  good horn set. My last ram was a wonderful 4H with 
lines back to Hardy Hill but he couldn't survive a ram battle with his big 
unweildy head. I just decided I needed a break from those horns that always 
seem to get you at the wrong place. And Linda I do believe that Patchwork 
Dandy was a beautiful 2H ram and he had some very nice offspring. I suppose 
I am not much of a breeder when I base my breeding on fleece and ease of 
management.
Elizabeth Strub
www.hobbyknobfarm.com
RUFIT Nutrition
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <jacob-list-request at jacobsheep.com>
To: <jacob-list at jacobsheep.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 8:06 AM
Subject: Jacob-list Digest, Vol 75, Issue 55



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> Today's Topics:

>

>   1. Two Horned /Four Horned (Lynette Frick)

>   2. Re: Two Horned /Four Horned (Shannon Phifer)

>   3. two horned/four horned (Betty Berlenbach)

>   4. Re: Primitive/ Improved Discussion (Linda)

>

>

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------

>

> Message: 1

> Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 22:30:31 -0700

> From: Lynette Frick <lynettefrick at gmail.com>

> Subject: [Jacob-list] Two Horned /Four Horned

> To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com

> Message-ID:

> <AANLkTineaG=Ef+bOPt9rP8mo2G9ohnFQr3nUp=eXSVd0 at mail.gmail.com>

> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

>

> Well, on the subject of quality 2 horned sheep selling equal, I do have to

> admit that I personally preferred them, and had several people that wanted

> them over the four horned. I personally liked the "clean" look of the 

> ewes,

> and the challenge of aiming for quality two horned offspring... not an 

> easy

> feat. I kept about equal of both in my flock though, as having the 

> diversity

> of choice is what makes the Jacob sheep unique. From the experience I had

> with my sheep, I saw lots of good four horn sets out of 2x4 crosses in

> either direction, so didn't cull based on number of horns, just quality in

> either type. I also didn't cross 2X4 to improve either type. They just got

> better as I cleared the lower quality out of either. I did have a ram with

> SUED, and never had any lambs born out of 2 horn ewes get SUED. Whereas,

> when the same ram was used over a four horn it displayed every time. Also,

> got SUED out of a four horn ewe who was absolutely clear out of different

> lineage, crossed with a 2 horn ram with normal eyes. So take it as you 

> will?

> If anybody is interested in my standpoint on horns, it would be to pick 

> the

> strong and clear of either type. As a shearer though the two horns do have

> the bonus of being substancially easier to shear :)

>

> PS. Had some "claw" horned ewes with strong claws give me beautiful sets

> too. Maybe a good percent of the qualityof horns, in 4 horns is in the

> individuals genetics, and the rest is chance.

>

> It's good to see so much healthy debate lately!

>

> Lynette

> Four Points Shearing & Sheep Co.

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> Message: 2

> Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 23:15:13 -0700 (PDT)

> From: Shannon Phifer <kenleighacres at yahoo.com>

> Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Two Horned /Four Horned

> To: Lynette Frick <lynettefrick at gmail.com>, jacob-list at jacobsheep.com

> Message-ID: <252911.84056.qm at web51008.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

>

> Completely agree Lynette - on all points!? You said it?better than I could 

> have

> -?thanks :)

> ?

> Shannon Phifer

> Kenleigh Acres Farm

> www.kenleigh-acres.com

> That'll Do Photography

> www.thatlldo.photoreflect.com

> ?

>

>

>

>

> ________________________________

> From: Lynette Frick <lynettefrick at gmail.com>

> To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com

> Sent: Tue, September 28, 2010 10:30:31 PM

> Subject: [Jacob-list] Two Horned /Four Horned

>

>

> Well, on the subject of quality 2 horned sheep selling equal, I?do?have to 

> admit

> that I personally preferred them, and had several people that wanted them 

> over

> the four horned.?I personally liked the "clean" look of the ewes, and the

> challenge of?aiming for?quality two horned offspring... not an easy 

> feat.?I kept

> about equal of both in my flock though, as having the diversity of choice 

> is

> what makes the Jacob sheep unique. From the experience I had with my 

> sheep, I

> saw lots of good four horn sets out of?2x4 crosses in either direction, so

> didn't cull based on number of horns, just quality in either type.?I also 

> didn't

> cross 2X4 to improve either type. They just got better as I cleared the 

> lower

> quality out of either. I did have a ram with SUED, and never had any lambs 

> born

> out of 2 horn ewes get SUED. Whereas, when the same ram was?used over?a 

> four

> horn it displayed every time. Also, got SUED out of a four horn ewe who 

> was

> absolutely clear out of different lineage, crossed with a 2 horn ram with 

> normal

> eyes. So take?it as you will? If anybody is interested in my standpoint on

> horns, it would be to pick the strong and clear?of either type. As a 

> shearer

> though the two horns do have the bonus of being substancially easier to 

> shear

> :)?

>

> PS. Had some "claw" horned ewes with strong claws give me beautiful sets 

> too.

> Maybe?a good percent?of the qualityof horns, in?4 horns is in the 

> individuals

> genetics, and the rest is chance.

>

> It's good to see so much healthy debate lately!

>

> Lynette

> Four Points Shearing & Sheep Co.

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> Message: 3

> Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 05:45:30 -0400

> From: "Betty Berlenbach" <lambfarm at tds.net>

> Subject: [Jacob-list] two horned/four horned

> To: <jacob-list at jacobsheep.com>

> Message-ID: <D9535994E3E349D49E406C55C69E45C5 at USER5AFE0954BF>

> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"

>

> Me, too, Lynette...thanks, well said.

> Betty, in Vermont,who now has a blog, thanks to help from Walter and 

> Linda.  See Betty's blog at http://sheepwoman.wordpress.com.

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>

> Message: 4

> Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 19:54:23 -0400

> From: Linda <patchworkfibers at windstream.net>

> Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Primitive/ Improved Discussion

> To: Neal Grose <nlgrose at yadtel.net>

> Cc: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com, Shari Staines <mikesharikids at yahoo.com>

> Message-ID: <4CA2802F.1000202 at windstream.net>

> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"

>

> That makes sense to me. It's my breeding plan.

> I was told years ago that using a two horned ram on forward horned ewes

> would help to set the horns back. I did it backwards by using a forward

> horned ram on a two horned ewe. Got great horns on that one cross. Like

> alot of breeders, I've seen SUED on lambs with one two horned parent.

> What I'm uncertain about is the claim that using a two horned ram on

> four horned ewe with weak laterals will give you a better chance of

> getting good laterals on ewe lambs. I've heard this, but haven't seen it

> as I haven't kept or bred ewes with weak laterals (my personal

> preference for my small flock) for many years and they didn't mesh with

> the year I used a 2 horned ram (lovely boy - all his ewe lambs were four

> horned and all his ram lambs were two horned).

> I prefer 4 horned sheep, but I love the look of a spectacular 2 horned

> Jacob. I do hear often that you can't sell a two horned Jacob, but just

> haven't seen it if the two horned are good quality. Good 2 horned Jacobs

> stand on their own. They do not need to be sold as something to 'help' 4

> horned sheep in relation to horns.

>

>

>

> Neal Grose wrote:

>> "My other question regarding the horns is this. . .Is it not true that

>> we need to breed 2 horn animals somewhat frequently within the 4 horn

>> population to keep the incidence of SUED down?  AND, to give strength

>> to the horn formation?  And, is there any scientific proof of those

>> things or only "live and learn" type stories?  I'd like to hear any

>> feedback on that."

>>

>> There was some data gathered on this a few years back. There was no

>> difference in the incidence of SUED offspring between (4 horn X 4

>> horn) and (2 horn X 4 horn).  This would tend to confirm our

>> observation that if you want good 4 horn confirmation, then you really

>> need to consistently breed for good 4 horn animals; and in order to do

>> that, you have to measure (or gauge) the effect in the sheep from

>> generation to generation.

>>

>> Neal Grose

>> North Carolina

>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>

>> _______________________________________________

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>

> -- 

> Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep <http://www.patchworkfibers.com>

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