[Jacob-list] Primitive/ Improved Discussion

[Shari Staines]

Thank you everyone for your responses!
 
I really enjoyed learning more about everyone's viewpoint.    I want to ask one question about registrations of 4 horn vs. 2 horn animals.  With nearly 50% of the registered sheep population in 2009 being of the 2 horn variety, do you think it possible that there are a lot more 4 horn sheep that are not being submitted for registration because breeders think (or feel certain) that they would NOT pass the registration process?  (Therefore, they are culled and off the radar.)  What if the breed standard is unintentionally encouraging more 2 horn registered sheep?   One might consider that since it is much more difficult to breed registerable (ideal in type) 4 horn sheep, there are probably a lot of people breeding 4 horn sheep that do not get registered.  Therefore, the registered number of 2 horn sheep may be weighted high and may not be as significant as the true ratio of 4 horn births to 2 horn births.   (This is really a
 question more than a statement.  Does anyone have a comment?)  
 
Thanks again for everyone's input on this very relevant topic. Have a good night!
 
Shari Staines
www.neverwinterfarm.com
  


--- On Tue, 9/28/10, Carl Fosbrink <fourhornfarm at frontier.com> wrote:


From: Carl Fosbrink <fourhornfarm at frontier.com>
Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Primitive/ Improved Discussion
To: "Shari Staines" <mikesharikids at yahoo.com>, jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
Date: Tuesday, September 28, 2010, 3:08 PM





 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Shari Staines 
To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com 
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 10:46 AM
Subject: [Jacob-list] Primitive/ Improved Discussion











Carl and Peg,
 
I have enjoyed your thoughts and comments about this topic.  There is reference to an article by Fred Horak that was not available as an attachment on my end of the email.  Would either of you be able to forward that to me?  I will try sending it to you personally.
 
Fred, if you happen to be tuned in, can you help Peg and I better understand by addressing the topic of two horn animals?  I am with Peg on this and feel that often the two horn animals are placed in low regard by many U.S. breeders.  There are some truly stunning 2 horn American Jacob Sheep within our population.  Is there concrete reasoning behind the placement of a lesser value on the two horn variety?  I would love to hear more on this subject.I have some 2Hs in my flock and you are correct that some of them are stunning. Some of the reasons I want to reduce the number of 2Hs in my flock are: 1. 47% of the Jacobs registered with our organization in 2009 were 2Hs. That is the highest number to date and unfortunate for a breed that is one of the very few breeds known as a polycerate breed of sheep. 2.  In my area of the country, Midwest, there aren't as many buyers for 2H sheep, mostly those who buy them for a child and are afraid the child
 will get hurt by a 4H, so many very nice 2Hs end up going to the meat market which is unfortunate. 3. Two multihorned parents with bad horns can produce a nice 2H offspring so it is very important to know what the horns were like on the parents of a 2H.   If ONLY 4 horn stock was brought in originally, and two horns were born to those 4 horns, and the 2 and 4 horn varieties live on. . .  It's a genetic variation, not a sign of inbreeding. From what I have read and pictures I have seen the 2Hs came from the later imports which included both 2H and 4H sheep. I hafve a photo of Dr. Fell's Jacobs that were the first released from the Chicago Zoo and all were 4Hs. Some of them didn't have very good horns, but none of them were 2H.Do some breeders believe that the two horn is somehow a lesser specimen (or a bi-product of inbreeding?) 2H has nothing to do with inbreeding and they are not a lesser specimen. There are just getting to be too many of
 them, in my opinion, for a polycerate breed of sheep.  Also, we should be careful when making choices on traits that we breed for so that we do not do our own breed any type of injustice over the coarse of time.  i.e. Concentration on breeding for 4 horns and playing up the supremacy of that specific trait may play a part in the devaluing of a good portion of beautiful stock (and the genetics that go with that stock.)  It also really hurts our price point on those two horn sheep.  (My opinion of course.)  I've been told that in certain geographic areas of the US, breeders have a difficult time giving away a two horn!  (And therefore they are sold for meat.)  It that geographic area, have breeders done this to themselves by placing too much credence on the 4 horn variety? I have not tried to say that 4H is superior to 2H, but the polycerate genes are an important part of our breed. I have seen some beautiful 4H offspring from a 2H
 parent. Don't know the answer.  Just wondering if anyone else knows and can share with me. 
 
For those that REALLY FOCUS on breeding the 4 horn variety, I am wondering WHY that trait in-particular is of such importance to you as a breeder.  Is it because of the belief that the original stock was ONLY 4 horn?  Or, is it a simple personal preference in that trait? It is because the polycerate genes are an important part of the Jacob breed and we are registering a higher percentage of 2Hs and a lower percentage of 4Hs. 
 
My other question regarding the horns is this. . .Is it not true that we need to breed 2 horn animals somewhat frequently within the 4 horn population to keep the incidence of SUED down?  AND, to give strength to the horn formation? There are those who believe this, but I have not found it to be true in the last 12 years that I have been raising Jacobs. I will say, however, that even when I breed 4H to 4H I get some 2H offspring due to the 2Hs in the pedigrees of some of my Jacobs. Therefore it is difficult to say if pure 4H to 4H would cause more SUED issues. I have bred a ram with no SUED to a ewe with a type 2 and the offspring did not have any SUED. And, is there any scientific proof of those things or only "live and learn" type stories?  I'd like to hear any feedback on that.I too would like to hear from others concerning these issues if you aren't afraid of the hate mail you may get. Due to the very open Standard we have for our breed, which
 allows members to breed for what they personally prefer in the breed, we have a lot of personal attacks when people like different types of Jacobs. Sometimes it is over a fear of loss of sales, but if we are in this to preserve and improve the American Jacob we must learn as much as we can about the breed and not take a person's differing opinion as a personal attack.
 
I've been told by many breeders that when a two horn ram fights a four horn ram, the 2 horn ALWAYS wins due to the larger surface area to HIT with!  So, in a primitive environment, would the 2 horn not prevail without human selection of the trait?  (Just a thought I had as I was typing this.)
 
This is a very intriguing and useful topic and I thank you for sharing your thoughts and experiences.  Have a wonderful day!
 
Best,
Shari Staines 
www.neverwinterfarm.com
 
 
 




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