[Jacob-list] Question......

[im rapunzil]

Well Fred, I certainly appreciate your detailed response.  You had some good points which I fully understood and agree with.  But must admit even after reading it twice, I just couldn't follow your scientific jargon.     
 
But I do know what a piebald is!  And a skewbald too for that matter!
 
Guess I must be "too blonde" for the rest of it.  Ho hum!
 
Cindy
Stone Hollow Farm

You live by writing your poems on a farm
and call that farming.



From: Jacobflock at aol.com
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 16:41:42 -0400
Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Question......
To: im-rapunzil at hotmail.com; jacob-list at jacobsheep.com



Dear Cindy and listers; 
I'm not sure that a measured response to Cindy's questions will significantly add to the storehouse of knowledge but here is an offering. Keep in mind that my references are in the public arena and references to our flock is only one of hundreds of flocks.
(a) There are as many reasons for having Jacobs as there are Jacob owners.  There are some that have a small flock of say 10 ewes and a couple of rams because they enjoy looking at them and have some lawn to mow.  There are others who think they are rare and rarity creates economic value.  There are some who have a commitment to conservation breeding in a more complete sense and pursue that course.  These are examples of reasons, not a complete list nor exclusive by reason.  Reasons for having Jacobs can be mixed and often are not exclusive.  We try to be conservators; our flock has about 30 rams, 120 ewes and about a third of our flock is sequestered for genetic studies.
(b) Just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder; we often use the term "primitive" through the eye of the beholder even though it has become a defined term, somewhat complex, with a genetic component.  Initially, the term primitive becomes somewhat somewhat defined and popular with respect to five sheep breeds (including the Piebald horned sheep) in the early 1900's (Elwes, 1913, the criteria previously posted on the list).  The concern for conserving what is recently popularized as the Jacob in 1969 results in both a "primitive" Jacob and a heavier, "improved" Jacob (Ark,1974).   The RBST becomes involved with the definition of the Jacob and after it is popularized, is "classified" as a "hill breed" and a "ewe breed".  The "primitive" breeds remaining in England are defined as: Soay, North Ronaldsday, Shetland, Hebridean, Manx Loughton and Hill; each markedly different in the relationship between weight AND the inter ishial tuber diameter compared to all other breeds and its "low management" requirements.  The UN, in its worldwide animal agriculture conservation paper has also referred to the easy lambing/tuber ishii criteria.  The Jacob in Great Britain weight/tuber-ishi ratio, on average, did not meet the "primitive" criteria.  But some individual sheep may have met the definition.  Primitive is not, per se, good or bad.  In one sense it is good for easy lambing and low management, in another sense it is bad for carcass weight, lamb growth, prolificacy and fleece.  
(c) At the flock level, I did a study of Jacob (n=71) birthing and dystocia (one characteristic of "primitive") was done in 1999 and again in 2000: average weight 42.91kg, sd 3.18; tuber ishi 41.29, sd 2.95mm.  Only 28 of 71 ewes fell into the definition of primitive.   For over 100 lambs there was no dystocia; but keep in mind the weight/tuber ishii ration is at the margins.
(d) The "ideal" Jacob specimen is basically determined by the breed association (bylaws) who register sheep as pure bred and suitable for breeding purposes. The breed association and breeder move the breed through the rocks of Charybdis.  Individual breeders breed to meet their flock objectives.  Breed fad, not a laudable goal, is in fact an objective; blue eyes, maybe throat mane, etc.   What must not be overlooked is the forest; other breed phenotypic traits that are not as obvious as its dominant black, recessive piebald, polycerate but adaptability and performance.  One can "preserve" the Jacob by cryo-preservation at a moment in time. "Conservation" implies carrying the Jacob traits through a changing environment and the fine line between genetic diversity and inbreeding; e.g., (Jacob breed status (n=2,400) by the USDA-NAGP 2004).  If one breeds the "ideal" ram to ten ewes (ceteris paribus), virtually nothing is added to genetic diversity (effective population of 4) ... but two "good" rams over 10 ewes doubles the effective population (say 7).  (ALBC, Conservation Breeding Handbook).  One really has to think through some complex issues but there is help out there ... at least a 100 year old warehouse of knowledge!
Regards,  
Fred Horak
St. Jude's Farm
1165 E. Lucas Rd.
Lucas, TX 75002
 

In a message dated 9/16/2010 10:12:44 P.M. Central Daylight Time, im-rapunzil at hotmail.com writes:
Now I'm asking this question because I'm new to Jacobs - NOT trying to be a smartass.
 
As I understand it, the purpose of breeding Jacobs isn't for the show ring; rather breed preservation.  My reason for getting into Jacobs is because its a Heritage breed and I want to help it flourish.
 
We hold our Jacob sheep dear for their primitiveness.  So my question is:  What are we breeding Jacobs for if not a most ideal specimen?
 
Are those "Other" sheep breeders not striving for the ideal applicable to their breeds purpose i.e. meat, milk, wool?
 
And how would anyone know what an "ideal" Jacob specimen is supposed to be?  Let's consider its a primitive breed established well before our time......  What exactly is this primitive breed supposed to be?  Who is the Authority of what aspects of primitiveness is good, and what is bad?
 
Does someone have "The Ancient Handbook of Jacob Breeding" they'd like to share?  
 
I know of some folks on here that have both Jacob and the "other" sheep.  I'd like to read the take they have on this.  Actually, I'm anxious to hear EVERYONES take on it!
 
Looking forward to your replies.
 
Cindy
Stone Hollow Farm
 
You live by writing your poems on a farm
and call that farming.


 










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