[Jacob-list] Primitive and history

[Betty Berlenbach]

For the record, the NRSV version, which is a more accurate version of the 
bible (lots of mistranslations in KJV, due to less understanding of the 
languages when translated years ago. The newer translations have taken into 
account more research, more manuscripts to consult, etc.) says in the verse 
you quoted,' striped, spotted and speckled..'  I will try to do more 
research and look up the Hebrew, though my Hebrew is a bit rusty, and I'm 
not sure I can find a dictionary...might have given it away when I retired. 
(from ordained ministry).Nevertheless, I will try...and get back to you. 
KJV is a beautiful work of art, to be sure, and wonderful poetry, but for 
accuracy of translation, you may want to try another version as well.  When 
preparing sermons, I always tried to look up the bible passage in at least 
four different translations and consult at least four commentaries by folks 
more learned in biblical history than I ever will be.  Then, I prayed over 
it and wrote the sermon.

Bottom line, I don't think it is really very important what color Jacob's 
sheep really were.  DNA tests I believe show some similarities to middle 
eastern sheep, and some to northern European sheep, but also a uniqueness in 
jacobs as a breed.  It's a lovely story that they are descended from Jacob's 
sheep, and I don't rule out the possibility that there is some credence in 
it, but I don't think it is terribly important in terms of the sheep or us.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Chris and Tina Griffin" <griffin45 at live.com>
To: <jacob-list at jacobsheep.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 7:38 AM
Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Primitive and history



>I am thinking that the primitive body type is small after reading all of 

>the answers.  I was interested in the history lesson of this topic.  Lots 

>of great information has been passed along on this last thread.  I just 

>have one little tidbit to add... True Jacob sheep of the bible would have 

>been brown not spotted.  The cattle Jacob kept were ringstraked, the goats 

>were spotted and the sheep were brown.  That is per the Authorized (King 

>James) Version of the bible, Genesis 30:39.  Reading the entire chapter you 

>will see that Jacob allowed only the best and healthiest animals to breed, 

>which to me is an important part of the Jacob sheep.  They have been 

>maintained by the present day shepherds the same way as Jacob would have - 

>Keep the Heartiest and the Healthiest animals with the best markings.

>

> Chris

> www.griffinsark.com

>

> --------------------------------------------------

> From: <jacob-list-request at jacobsheep.com>

> Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 10:33 PM

> To: <jacob-list at jacobsheep.com>

> Subject: Jacob-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 5

>

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>> Today's Topics:

>>

>>   1. Re: Intro and horns question (Paul Sisk)

>>   2. Liver Flukes (shmee1 at mail.com)

>>   3. Re: Primitive? (Linda)

>>   4. Re: Liver Flukes (Susan Nielsen)

>>

>>

>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------

>>

>> Message: 1

>> Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 18:42:43 -0500

>> From: "Paul Sisk" <psisk at hughes.net>

>> Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Intro and horns question

>> To: <jacob-list at jacobsheep.com>

>> Message-ID: <IJEKKNHKFHKCJKMGDMKOEENFCIAA.psisk at hughes.net>

>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>  I hope you'll join JSBA and register your sheep, if they aren't 

>> registered

>> already.

>>

>>  Enjoy your flock!

>>

>>  Linda

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>  I am mailing my membership in Monday. I intend to register all of the 

>> four

>> horn ewes and the ram, who is also four horned and nearly perfect except 

>> for

>> what he has broken off the tips. I got them from Lucinda Richardson in

>> Camilla. I got eight ewes and one ram. Six of the ewes are four horned 

>> and

>> very nice horns. I will still be looking for a young ram in the spring

>> though.

>>

>>  Thanks to all who answered

>>  Paul

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>> Message: 2

>> Date: Sat, 07 Nov 2009 20:42:49 -0500

>> From: shmee1 at mail.com

>> Subject: [Jacob-list] Liver Flukes

>> To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com

>> Message-ID: <8CC2E2BEA2455EA-D48-CCB2 at web-mmc-d06.sysops.aol.com>

>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>>

>> Yesterday I took my lambs and two mature rams to be slaughtered.? The 

>> inspector informed me that some liver flukes, specifically lancets, were 

>> found in all of them.? This is the first time that I have encountered 

>> this issue, the inspector told me that he has never seen this in my sheep 

>> before having inspected them on three prior occassions.?

>>

>>

>>

>> I have dewormed my whole flock today with Ivomec, it was already in my 

>> plan to do so.? Do I need to treat with something else to address the 

>> liver flukes or will the Ivomec take care of it?

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

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>> Message: 3

>> Date: Sat, 07 Nov 2009 21:09:29 -0500

>> From: Linda <patchworkfibers at windstream.net>

>> Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Primitive?

>> To: Jacobflock at aol.com

>> Cc: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com, farmgirlarts at triad.rr.com,

>> nlgrose at yadtel.net

>> Message-ID: <4AF62859.9010808 at windstream.net>

>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"

>>

>> So, there is no "primitive" body type?

>>

>> Jacobflock at aol.com wrote:

>>> The term "primitive" referring to sheep can have a variety of

>>> meanings depending on one's orientation, e.g., a divergence from a

>>> commercial standard or a divergence from a breed standard or a breed

>>> that is relatively unimproved.  When "primitive" is used to describe

>>> the Jacob breed the term might be better applied, not to a particular

>>> sheep but to a breed's performance.  My frame of referemce  for this

>>> term has always been "Guide to the Primitive Breeds of Sheep and their

>>> crosses on Exhibition at the Royal Agricultural Society's Show,

>>> Bristol, 1913 with notes on the Management of Park Sheep in England

>>> and the Possible Advantages of Crossing Them with Improved Breeds" by

>>> John Elwes.  (The book is only a little longer than the title)

>>>

>>> He describes his dozen years of breeding some of the original breeds

>>> (primitive breeds) still surviving in England in the early 1900's: Old

>>> Horned Wiltshire, Norfolk, Shetland, Manx, Soay, Hebridian, and

>>> "Spanish" or Piebald Sheep, Fat Rumped sheep, Welsh Sheep, Black-Faced

>>> Highland, Siberian and Orkney.  The name Jacob given by Earl

>>> Fitzwilliam to the Spanish Sheep fifty years earlier still hasn't

>>> caught on and won't until fifty years after this work by Elwes..

>>>

>>> Elwes describes these primitive, unimproved, breeds as having certain

>>> common traits: "Firstly, breed capable of enduring extremes of wet,

>>> cold and heat ... Secondly, they must be able to winter on grass alone

>>> without suffering from lameness.... Thirdly, to produce and suckle

>>> their lambs without the shelter of a ewe pen and without the

>>> assistance of a shepherd... Fourthly, to get a fat lamb in July or

>>> August without any more artificial food than is necessary to prevent

>>> the ewes from scouring ... or if lambs are kept over winter to make a

>>> small carcass of high-class mutton, not exceeding 40-50 pounds dead

>>> weight at 18-20 months old off the grass. Fifthly, to produce as far

>>> as possible a flleece of fine soft wool ..."  Elwes will keep his

>>> sheep in park with his deer, observing the sheep's slower pace to

>>> maturity, all requiring little management.

>>>

>>> If one jumps ahead to the founding of the Jacob Sheep Society, the

>>> conservation of the breed takes a course based on "commercialization"

>>> of the breed, voices to conserve the primitive type were not widely

>>> heeded. After a relatively few years the Jacob is standardized and the

>>> typical Jacob is 10-20% heavier.  Some of these improved types might

>>> be represented by the Jacobs Ladder line as Todd's purpose was to

>>> import good stock to commercialize the Jacob in the US. (The Importing

>>> Woes Were Worth It by Todd Hescock).   Some might argue the primitive

>>> type might be represented by Tony Turner's flock which preceded

>>> Hescock's flock by several years.  A comparison of the appearance of

>>> these two types adds some but not compelling evidence of the

>>> difference between primitive and improved.  However, primitive, as

>>> first used in reference to Jacobs, really goes to performance and no

>>> evidence, other than Todd's article, has indicated a size

>>> or performance difference.

>>>

>>> Fred Horak

>>>

>>>     ----- Original Message -----

>>>     *From:* Laura C Frazier <mailto:farmgirlarts at triad.rr.com>

>>>     *To:* jacob-list at jacobsheep.com <mailto:jacob-list at jacobsheep.com>

>>>     *Sent:* Tuesday, November 03, 2009 9:41 PM

>>>     *Subject:* [Jacob-list] Primitive?

>>>

>>>     I'd like to have some clarification about the

>>>     characteristics/traits of the "primitive" Jacob sheep. I've

>>>     heard/read of some individuals being referred to as "primitive",

>>>     including my ram, and I'd just like to better understand this.

>>>     Less black? Finer bones? Smaller in stature?

>>>

>>>     Thanks!

>>>     Laura

>>>

>>>     Laura C Frazier

>>>     FarmGirl Arts

>>>     (336) 971-3834

>>>     Kernersville, NC

>>>     http://home.rr.com/farmgirlarts

>>>

>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>>

>>> _______________________________________________

>>> Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks

>>> Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com

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>>

>> -- 

>> Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep <http://www.patchworkfibers.com>

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>> Message: 4

>> Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 22:27:30 -0500 (EST)

>> From: Susan Nielsen <snielsen1 at earthlink.net>

>> Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Liver Flukes

>> To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com

>> Message-ID:

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>> End of Jacob-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 5

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