[Jacob-list] Primitive?

[fourhornfarm]

     I believe there is a primitive type Jacob. The American Jacob. The one with a deer-like conformation and a triangular head and sloping rump that tracks narrowly and stands on it's back legs to browse and fights off predators.
      After talking by phone with Luke Hardy and by e-mail with Edd Bissell and Jacques Lasseau they gave me this account of Jacobs in America: Dr Fell and Charles Humes both got Jacobs from the Chicago Zoo and Bill Reynolds got Jacobs from Dr. Fell. They feel these Jacobs came from a different source or a different flock than the Jacobs from Turner, but aren't sure which, and feel these Jacobs were before the Dorset influence or from a flock without the Dorset influence. The Jacobs from Turner had more of the large eye patches with pigmented muzzles and white legs while the Jacobs from the Chicago Zoo were mostly black muzzles and knee and hock spots and had more freckling.
     After Lasseau got the Jacobs from Turner there was a limited gene pool and Lasseau traded sheep with Bill Reynolds. Lasseau liked the black muzzles and smaller eye patches look that the Zoo sheep had so bred more for that look using Reynolds Nestor on his flock and back on the offspring. He also used Nestor's son Sheepside Samuel. Lasseau said Jacobs from England after 1982 should not be considered for registration in America unless they met all of our breed standard qualifications.
      Luke Hardy got Hardy Hill Sir Charles, who is in Ingrid's book, from Charlie Humes and named him after Charles Humes. Luke says all the Humes Jacobs had knee and hock spots and smaller eye patches.
       Hatch bought about 20 ewes from Reynolds and many of the offspring were sold on the West Coast. Bissell got Hatch's ram Eder and he had lots of small body spots, small eye patches and huge horns. Edd used Eder a lot. The Hatch stock often had one slipped eye patch, but always huge horns.
        So our Jacobs are a mix of different lines, but the American Jacob is suppose to have the primitive characteristics and this is something we should all breed for. It is what makes our Jacobs The American Jacob Sheep.

Carl in Indiana
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Linda 
  To: Jacobflock at aol.com 
  Cc: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com ; farmgirlarts at triad.rr.com ; nlgrose at yadtel.net 
  Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 9:09 PM
  Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Primitive?


  So, there is no "primitive" body type?

  Jacobflock at aol.com wrote: 
    The term "primitive" referring to sheep can have a variety of meanings depending on one's orientation, e.g., a divergence from a commercial standard or a divergence from a breed standard or a breed that is relatively unimproved.  When "primitive" is used to describe the Jacob breed the term might be better applied, not to a particular sheep but to a breed's performance.  My frame of referemce  for this term has always been "Guide to the Primitive Breeds of Sheep and their crosses on Exhibition at the Royal Agricultural Society's Show, Bristol, 1913 with notes on the Management of Park Sheep in England and the Possible Advantages of Crossing Them with Improved Breeds" by John Elwes.  (The book is only a little longer than the title)

    He describes his dozen years of breeding some of the original breeds (primitive breeds) still surviving in England in the early 1900's: Old Horned Wiltshire, Norfolk, Shetland, Manx, Soay, Hebridian, and "Spanish" or Piebald Sheep, Fat Rumped sheep, Welsh Sheep, Black-Faced Highland, Siberian and Orkney.  The name Jacob given by Earl Fitzwilliam to the Spanish Sheep fifty years earlier still hasn't caught on and won't until fifty years after this work by Elwes..  

    Elwes describes these primitive, unimproved, breeds as having certain common traits: "Firstly, breed capable of enduring extremes of wet, cold and heat ... Secondly, they must be able to winter on grass alone without suffering from lameness.... Thirdly, to produce and suckle their lambs without the shelter of a ewe pen and without the assistance of a shepherd... Fourthly, to get a fat lamb in July or August without any more artificial food than is necessary to prevent the ewes from scouring ... or if lambs are kept over winter to make a small carcass of high-class mutton, not exceeding 40-50 pounds dead weight at 18-20 months old off the grass. Fifthly, to produce as far as possible a flleece of fine soft wool ..."  Elwes will keep his sheep in park with his deer, observing the sheep's slower pace to maturity, all requiring little management.

    If one jumps ahead to the founding of the Jacob Sheep Society, the conservation of the breed takes a course based on "commercialization" of the breed, voices to conserve the primitive type were not widely heeded. After a relatively few years the Jacob is standardized and the typical Jacob is 10-20% heavier.  Some of these improved types might be represented by the Jacobs Ladder line as Todd's purpose was to import good stock to commercialize the Jacob in the US. (The Importing Woes Were Worth It by Todd Hescock).   Some might argue the primitive type might be represented by Tony Turner's flock which preceded Hescock's flock by several years.  A comparison of the appearance of these two types adds some but not compelling evidence of the difference between primitive and improved.  However, primitive, as first used in reference to Jacobs, really goes to performance and no evidence, other than Todd's article, has indicated a size or performance difference.

    Fred Horak 
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Laura C Frazier 
      To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com 
      Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 9:41 PM
      Subject: [Jacob-list] Primitive?


      I'd like to have some clarification about the characteristics/traits of the "primitive" Jacob sheep. I've heard/read of some individuals being referred to as "primitive", including my ram, and I'd just like to better understand this. Less black? Finer bones? Smaller in stature?  


      Thanks!
      Laura

      Laura C Frazier
      FarmGirl Arts
      (336) 971-3834
      Kernersville, NC
      http://home.rr.com/farmgirlarts


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