[Retros] RE : Retros Digest, Vol 22, Issue 1

[Paul R]

It achieves the task, but the double check is not required to give mate
(sufficient, but not necessary). Is there a short game where the final
double-check on the home square is the only move to deliver mate?

Regards,

Allan.
   
  
Yes, for ex:
  Popeye WINDOWS-32Bit-Version 3.81 (4 MB)
  1.a2-a4 d7-d6   2.Ra1-a3 Ke8-d7   3.Ra3-d3 Kd7-c6   4.Sb1-c3 Kc6-c5   5.b2-b4 + Kc5*b4   6.Bc1-a3 + Kb4*a3   7.Qd1-b1 Bc8-e6   8.Qb1-b5 Be6-a2   9.Sc3-b1 dia 
   Ragards,

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Today's Topics:

1. Re: Task (Noam Elkies)
2. Current best solutions to my task :
(Nicolas.Dupont at math.univ-lille1.fr)
3. Re: Current best solutions to my task : (Christoph Fieberg)
4. Re: Current best solutions to my task : (Joost de Heer)
5. Re: Current best solutions to my task :
(Nicolas.Dupont at math.univ-lille1.fr)
6. Captureless exact proof game showing Nb8->b1 and Ng8->g1.
(Nicolas.Dupont at math.univ-lille1.fr)
7. Re: Task - double check mate (Allan Bell)
8. Task - double check mate (raosorio at fibertel.com.ar)
9. Re: Task - double check mate (Allan Bell)


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Message: 1
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 20:38:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: Noam Elkies 
Subject: Re: [Retros] Task
To: retros at janko.at
Message-ID: <200609280038.k8S0ccN26596 at abel.math.harvard.edu>

I wrote:

" > Rook without capture : 9 moves (Itamar Faybish)

" This at least is not optimal:

" 1 f3 h5 2 Kf2 h4 3 Qe1 h3 4 Kg3 Nf6 5 Qf2 Rg8 6 Kh4 Se4 7 g3 f5 8 Qg2 Rh8#

" (C+ Popeye very quickly), and one can probably go below 8.0
" with some more effort.

Indeed here's one in 7.5 (C+ Popeye in <1 sec.):

1 h4 e6 2 h5 Qh4 3 h6 Qe4 4 f4 f6 5 Nf3 Kf7 6 Rg1 Kg6 7 Ne5+ Kh5 8 Rh1#

--Noam D. Elkies


------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 04:27:32 +0200 (CEST)
From: Nicolas.Dupont at math.univ-lille1.fr
Subject: [Retros] Current best solutions to my task :
To: "The Retrograde Analysis Mailing List" 
Message-ID:
<1602.81.20.211.142.1159410452.squirrel at mathwebmail.univ-lille1.fr>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8

King without capture : 5.5 moves (Noam Elkies)
1.d4 f6 2.Qd3 Kf7 3.Qh3 Kg6 4.Kd2 Kg5 5.Nc3 Kf4 6.Ke1#
King with capture : not least

Knight without capture : 6 moves (Itamar Faybish)
1.e3 e6 2.Ke2 Bd6 3.Kf3 Qf6+ 4.Kg4 Ne7 5.Kh5 g6+ 6.Kh6 Ng8#
Knight with capture : not least

Queen without capture : 6 moves (Joachim Iglesias)
1.d3 d6 2.Kd2 Bd7 3.Kc3 Qc8 4.Kb4 c5+ 5.Ka5 Bc6 6.b4 Qd8#
Queen with capture : not least

Bishop without capture : 6.5 moves (Itamar Faybish)
1.e4 e5 2.Ne2 Ke7 3.Nec3 Kf6 4.Be2 Kg5 5.d3+ Kh4 6.g3+ Kh3 7.Bf1#
Bishop with capture : not least

Rook without capture : 7.5 moves (Noam Elkies)
1.h4 e6 2.h5 Qh4 3.h6 Qe4 4.f4 f6 5.Nf3 Kf7 6.Rg1 Kg6 7. Ne5+ Kh5 8.Rh1#
Rook with capture : 6 moves (Joachim Iglesias)
1.e3 e6 2.Ke2 Ne7 3.Kf3 Rg8 4.Kg4 h5+ 5.Kxh5 Nec6 6.Qg4 Rh8#



























------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 22:55:21 +0200
From: Christoph Fieberg 
Subject: Re: [Retros] Current best solutions to my task :
To: The Retrograde Analysis Mailing List 
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060928225227.02b138e8 at pop.1und1.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed;
x-avg-checked=avg-ok-F9837E8

Hello Nicolas,

Bishop with capture:
What about
1.e4 e6 2.Bb5 Ke7 3.Bxd7 Kf6 4.Bb5 Kg5 5.Nh3+ Kh4 6.g3+ Kxh3 7.Bf1# ?

Best regards,
Christoph

At 04:27 28.09.2006, you wrote:


>King without capture : 5.5 moves (Noam Elkies)

>1.d4 f6 2.Qd3 Kf7 3.Qh3 Kg6 4.Kd2 Kg5 5.Nc3 Kf4 6.Ke1#

>King with capture : not least

>

>Knight without capture : 6 moves (Itamar Faybish)

>1.e3 e6 2.Ke2 Bd6 3.Kf3 Qf6+ 4.Kg4 Ne7 5.Kh5 g6+ 6.Kh6 Ng8#

>Knight with capture : not least

>

>Queen without capture : 6 moves (Joachim Iglesias)

>1.d3 d6 2.Kd2 Bd7 3.Kc3 Qc8 4.Kb4 c5+ 5.Ka5 Bc6 6.b4 Qd8#

>Queen with capture : not least

>

>Bishop without capture : 6.5 moves (Itamar Faybish)

>1.e4 e5 2.Ne2 Ke7 3.Nec3 Kf6 4.Be2 Kg5 5.d3+ Kh4 6.g3+ Kh3 7.Bf1#

>Bishop with capture : not least

>

>Rook without capture : 7.5 moves (Noam Elkies)

>1.h4 e6 2.h5 Qh4 3.h6 Qe4 4.f4 f6 5.Nf3 Kf7 6.Rg1 Kg6 7. Ne5+ Kh5 8.Rh1#

>Rook with capture : 6 moves (Joachim Iglesias)

>1.e3 e6 2.Ke2 Ne7 3.Kf3 Rg8 4.Kg4 h5+ 5.Kxh5 Nec6 6.Qg4 Rh8#

>_______________________________________________

>Retros mailing list

>Retros at janko.at

>http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/retros




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Message: 4
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 23:27:51 +0200
From: Joost de Heer 
Subject: Re: [Retros] Current best solutions to my task :
To: The Retrograde Analysis Mailing List 
Message-ID: <451C3E57.5050502 at sanguis.xs4all.nl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Christoph Fieberg schreef:

> Hello Nicolas,

> 

> Bishop with capture:

> What about

> 1.e4 e6 2.Bb5 Ke7 3.Bxd7 Kf6 4.Bb5 Kg5 5.Nh3+ Kh4 6.g3+ Kxh3 7.Bf1# ?


The record for capture-games should be shorter than the record for 
captureless games.


------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 23:47:38 +0200 (CEST)
From: Nicolas.Dupont at math.univ-lille1.fr
Subject: Re: [Retros] Current best solutions to my task :
To: "The Retrograde Analysis Mailing List" 
Message-ID:
<2415.81.20.213.151.1159480058.squirrel at mathwebmail.univ-lille1.fr>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8


>From Joost :



> The record for capture-games should be shorter than the record for

> captureless games.


Yes. A little confusion comes from my wrong term "not least", which must
be change by "no less".

It's rather strange that, except for the rook case, minima can be
captureless.





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Message: 6
Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2006 21:43:55 +0200 (CEST)
From: Nicolas.Dupont at math.univ-lille1.fr
Subject: [Retros] Captureless exact proof game showing Nb8->b1 and
Ng8->g1.
To: "The Retrograde Analysis Mailing List" 
Message-ID:
<1241.81.20.209.58.1159731835.squirrel at mathwebmail.univ-lille1.fr>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8

I found the following :

1.Cg1-h3 Pe7-e5 2.Ch3-f4 Ff8-a3 3.Pb2-b4 Cg8-f6 4.Fc1-b2 Cf6-e4 5.Fb2-d4
Fa3-c1 6.Cb1-a3 Ce4-g5 7.Ta1-b1 Cg5-h3 8.Tb1-b3 Ch3-g1 9.Tb3-h3 Cb8-c6
10.Pc2-c3 Cc6-a5 11.Dd1-a4 Ca5-c4 12.Da4-c6 Pa7-a5 13.Ca3-b5 Cc4-a3
14.Fd4-e3 Ca3-b1

Is it possible to construct it in fewer moves ?

Nicolas Dupont.




------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2006 21:08:13 +0100
From: "Allan Bell" 
Subject: Re: [Retros] Task - double check mate
To: "The Retrograde Analysis Mailing List" ,

Message-ID: <001301c6e595$86482280$29cd7dc2 at allanb>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Noam Elkies" 
To: ; 
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 2:49 AM
Subject: Re: [Retros] Task



> > In the web-site "France-Echecs", I proposed the following problem :

> > Construct the shortest possible exact proof game ending by a check-mate

> > given by a piece returning at home.

>

> What's the link?

>

> > Here are our records, the 2 sections depending on whether or not

> > some piece is captured during the game :

>

> There could also be separate sections for discovered, direct

> and double check (though of course not all pieces can do

> all of them).


As suggested by Noam, here is a double check-mate (with captures) given by
a piece returning to its home square. Both checks are required.

1.Pa2-a4 Pe7-e5 2.Ra1-a3 Ke8-e7 3.Ra3-e3 Ke7-d6
4.Sb1-c3 Kd6-c5 5.Pb2-b4 Kc5xb4 6.Bc1-a3 Kb4xa3
7.Qd1-b1 Pb7-b5 8.Qb1xb5 Bf8-b4 9.Ke1-d1 Pd7-d6
10.Kd1-c1 Bc8-f5 11.Kc1-b1 Bf5xc2 12.Kb1-a1 Pf7-f5
13.Sc3-b1

C+ Natch

But there must be a shorter setting.

Allan Bell


>

> > Knight with capture : not least [...]

>

> What does "not least" mean?

>

> > Rook without capture : 9 moves (Itamar Faybish)

>

> This at least is not optimal:

>

> 1 f3 h5 2 Kf2 h4 3 Qe1 h3 4 Kg3 Nf6 5 Qf2 Rg8 6 Kh4 Se4 7 g3 f5 8 Qg2 Rh8#

>

> (C+ Popeye very quickly), and one can probably go below 8.0

> with some more effort.

>

> --Noam D. Elkies

> _______________________________________________

> Retros mailing list

> Retros at janko.at

> http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/retros

>

>





------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2006 08:28:08 -0300
From: 
Subject: [Retros] Task - double check mate 
To: unlisted-recipients:; (no To-header on input)
Message-ID: <2b2ad1368b11.4520cd98 at fibertel.com.ar>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


Allan Bell wrote,

As suggested by Noam, here is a double check-mate (with captures) given by
a piece returning to its home square. Both checks are required.

1.Pa2-a4 Pe7-e5 2.Ra1-a3 Ke8-e7 3.Ra3-e3 Ke7-d6
4.Sb1-c3 Kd6-c5 5.Pb2-b4 Kc5xb4 6.Bc1-a3 Kb4xa3
7.Qd1-b1 Pb7-b5 8.Qb1xb5 Bf8-b4 9.Ke1-d1 Pd7-d6
10.Kd1-c1 Bc8-f5 11.Kc1-b1 Bf5xc2 12.Kb1-a1 Pf7-f5
13.Sc3-b1

But there must be a shorter setting.

Here is one without captures,

1.Pe2-e3 Pd7-d6 2.Ke1-e2 Bc8-h3 3.Ke2-f3 Pe7-e6 
4.Kf3-f4 Sg8-e7 5.Kf4-g5 Pg7-g6 6.Kg5-f6 Se7-g8
natch 0.22 s

Regards,



------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2006 15:52:01 +0100
From: "Allan Bell" 
Subject: Re: [Retros] Task - double check mate 
To: "The Retrograde Analysis Mailing List" ,

Message-ID: <000b01c6e6fb$7cefade0$0dcd7dc2 at allanb>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Yes. It's a pity that all other knight moves are mate as well, including
the other double-check mate 6.... Se7-d5.

It achieves the task, but the double check is not required to give mate
(sufficient, but not necessary). Is there a short game where the final
double-check on the home square is the only move to deliver mate?

Regards,

Allan.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: 
To: ; 
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 12:28 PM
Subject: [Retros] Task - double check mate



>

> Allan Bell wrote,

>

> As suggested by Noam, here is a double check-mate (with captures) given by

> a piece returning to its home square. Both checks are required.

>

> 1.Pa2-a4 Pe7-e5 2.Ra1-a3 Ke8-e7 3.Ra3-e3 Ke7-d6

> 4.Sb1-c3 Kd6-c5 5.Pb2-b4 Kc5xb4 6.Bc1-a3 Kb4xa3

> 7.Qd1-b1 Pb7-b5 8.Qb1xb5 Bf8-b4 9.Ke1-d1 Pd7-d6

> 10.Kd1-c1 Bc8-f5 11.Kc1-b1 Bf5xc2 12.Kb1-a1 Pf7-f5

> 13.Sc3-b1

>

> But there must be a shorter setting.

>

> Here is one without captures,

>

> 1.Pe2-e3 Pd7-d6 2.Ke1-e2 Bc8-h3 3.Ke2-f3 Pe7-e6

> 4.Kf3-f4 Sg8-e7 5.Kf4-g5 Pg7-g6 6.Kg5-f6 Se7-g8

> natch 0.22 s

>

> Regards,

>

> _______________________________________________

> Retros mailing list

> Retros at janko.at

> http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/retros

>

>





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