[Jacob-list] New Booklet "Guide to Selection ofJacobBreeding Stock"

[Linda]

I see nothing in the guidebook that promotes the heavy meat type body 
that you see in English Jacobs and that is, in my humble opinion, the 
most obvious indication that another breed was added to the original 
Jacobs to make them more commercial.
I gotta say that one of those rams (they are two different rams) on the 
cover, Puddleduck Sir James, despite having a pigmented muzzle and white 
legs was a ram that added much to the Jacob breed and served as a 
cornerstone for many flocks.
I don't care for the words "ideal" in reference to Jacob Sheep. That 
implies that one standardized type is the most (only?) acceptable type - 
which we know isn't true. I prize the diversity in my flock and in the 
breed, even though I have my own quite strong biases for/against 
specific traits. I am against any traits that suggest crossbreeding, but 
tolerant of traits that occur from breeder selection.

Linda .

On 8/31/2011 5:52 PM, Carl Fosbrink wrote:

> **

> *As you say, It is what it is now. It shows one person's opinion only 

> and promotes a more English style Jacob as being preferred. Too bad in 

> my opinion.*

>

>     ----- Original Message -----

>     *From:* Betty Berlenbach <mailto:lambfarm at tds.net>

>     *To:* Carl Fosbrink <mailto:fourhornfarm at frontier.com> ;

>     spotted_sheep at bluefrog.com <mailto:spotted_sheep at bluefrog.com> ;

>     peggy <mailto:mvanbeek7 at gmail.com>

>     *Cc:* jacob-list at jacobsheep.com <mailto:jacob-list at jacobsheep.com>

>     *Sent:* Wednesday, August 31, 2011 4:37 PM

>     *Subject:* Re: [Jacob-list] New Booklet "Guide to Selection

>     ofJacobBreeding Stock"

>

>     Perhaps it would have been better to have two rams, one with

>     pigmented, one with muzzle, with the caption saying "two examples

>     of types of ideal jacob markings" since some prefer one, some the

>     other. But it is what it is, at this point.  Despite this

>     difficulty for some people, I think the book shows an enormous

>     amount of work, and is very helpful.  I'm guessing that there

>     might well be reason to have a short insert in the booklet that

>     says that though it might look like pigmented is to be preferred

>     to muzzle, and though it might seem like freckling is a foregone

>     conclusion in sheep with knee patches and socks, there are

>     certainly diverse opinions on that and evidence suggests that it

>     is fairly easy to breed away from freckles even in such sheep. 

>     THat way, all opinions might be expressed, new breeders won't get

>     "WRONG IDEAS" and maybe everyone can rest easy?

>     *From:* Carl Fosbrink <mailto:fourhornfarm at frontier.com>

>     *Sent:* Wednesday, August 31, 2011 4:08 PM

>     *To:* spotted_sheep at bluefrog.com

>     <mailto:spotted_sheep at bluefrog.com> ; peggy

>     <mailto:mvanbeek7 at gmail.com>

>     *Cc:* jacob-list at jacobsheep.com <mailto:jacob-list at jacobsheep.com>

>     *Subject:* Re: [Jacob-list] New Booklet "Guide to Selection

>     ofJacobBreeding Stock"

>     I must agree that the pigmented noses, large eye patches almost to

>     the nose and white legs are found on English Jacobs. They are

>     acceptable here in America and by the JSBA. Several years ago the

>     Jacobs with black muzzles and feet and knee and hock spots were

>     considered ideal and the Jacobs with pimented muzzles and white

>     legs were considered acceptable. I was told this by an ex

>     inspector and JSBA member who worked on the original guide book

>     and had Jacobs before I did. I am disappointed that new members

>     will be led to believe that pigmented muzzles and white legs are

>     preferred to black muzzles and legs and knee and hock spots. I was

>     unable to attend the 2009 AGM, but sent a list for discussion on

>     items in the Guide Book. One of those questions for discussion was

>     about the wording on the cover photo. None of my points for

>     discussion were changed in the guidebook. While I think the ram on

>     the front page has wonderful lateral horns I do not consider him

>     perfect in horns because of his top horns direction and I do not

>     consider his color perfect because that inferes that pigmented

>     muzzles are better than black muzzles. I also am upset that the

>     few photos in the guidebook that are of Jacobs with knee and hock

>     patches have negative comments assosiated with them. Leg color and

>     freckling are not neccessarily connected. I have four breeding

>     rams that have knee and hock spots and none of them have any

>     freckling.  Several of the original imports of Jacobs from the

>     Isle of Skye to the Chicago Zoo and Jacobs from Africa did have

>     freckling, but it can be easily  selected away from. Edd Bisell

>     said he never saw a Jacob that didn't have four horns and knee and

>     hock spots until he went to Mazie Hescock's and saw her flock.

>     Those later imports had the pigmented muzzles and large eye

>     patches and white legs for the most part, but the breeders of the

>     day were glad to get some new genes without going to another breed

>     and the Isle of Skye and Africa imports were crossed with the

>     English imports quickly. What we have today is a mix and what you

>     prefer is OK, but to say one is perfect is to imply that the other

>     is not.

>

>         ----- Original Message -----

>         *From:* spotted_sheep at bluefrog.com

>         <mailto:spotted_sheep at bluefrog.com>

>         *To:* peggy <mailto:mvanbeek7 at gmail.com>

>         *Cc:* jacob-list at jacobsheep.com

>         <mailto:jacob-list at jacobsheep.com>

>         *Sent:* Monday, August 08, 2011 12:30 PM

>         *Subject:* Re: [Jacob-list] New Booklet "Guide to Selection of

>         JacobBreeding Stock"

>         I also noticed the caption under it saying something about the

>         two cover boy's markings being "ideal", when both were missing

>         nose patches (dark pigmented, but no actual spot)...Not really

>         "ideal" in my mind, although totally acceptable... It made me

>         think of British Jacobs actually.

>

>         Marie

>

>         --- mvanbeek7 at gmail.com <mailto:mvanbeek7 at gmail.com> wrote:

>

>         From: "peggy" <mvanbeek7 at gmail.com <mailto:mvanbeek7 at gmail.com>>

>         To: <jacob-list at jacobsheep.com <mailto:jacob-list at jacobsheep.com>>

>         Subject: [Jacob-list] New Booklet "Guide to Selection of Jacob

>         Breeding Stock"

>         Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 09:23:35 -0400

>

>         *I just received my copy of the "Guide" and right off the bat

>         here we are putting a four horn ewe and a four horn ram on the

>         front cover.  No two horns.  So anyone looking at that would

>         certainly think that four horn is the only "Jacob" because if

>         two horn was just as important then they also would be on the

>         front cover.  I don't care if I stick my neck out on this one

>         but come on didn't anyone think???*

>

>         **

>

>         *The front cover should have been divided into four pictures

>         one of each.   I thought we discussed this at the AGM in NJ

>         how important two horn Jacobs are. I guess not and the message

>         stinks.*

>

>         **

>

>         *Peg van Beek*

>

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