[Jacob-list] post from yahoo list

[Linda]

Very interesting post, Sharon. Thanks for giving me alot to think about.
I've had lilac Jacobs for 14 years. I have had very few blue lilacs - 
mine are chocolate.
A big problem in determining lilac inheritance factors is that JSBA 
doesn't really define lilac as anything more than 'not black'. So what 
is called lilac can be anything from a poor black, to an actual slate 
blue lilac, to a true chocolate lilac. My definition criteria for a 
lilac includes that they breed true....lilac + lilac = lilac.

In my observations, you lose muzzle/eye pigment when you breed animals 
lacking muzzle/eye pigment - regardless of what color they are.
Early graying is a problem that is not confined to lilacs. I admit to 
having a hard time getting good retention on both my blacks and my lilacs.
Horns? I haven't seen a lack of horn quality on my lilacs, but I am 
pretty fussy about strong horns, so don't use sheep with weak horns. I 
believe the horn issue is more related to horn genetics than color 
genetics, but that's just my opinion.
I have heard it said that freckled Jacobs tend to have better color 
retention and I'd say that was probably true 10 years ago. I've seen 
some fantastic black wool on unfreckled sheep in the last 3 or 4 years 
(not in my flock - still working on that!)
I don't know of many lilac Jacobs that are more than two or three 
generations of only lilacs.It would be interesting if someone that has 
would respond to with their experiences. My  most concentrated lilac is 
third generation on the bottom, but only second on the top.  I've bred 
five lilac ewes to a lilac ram this year. The ram has excellent markings 
- lots of flash. Three of his ewes have pigment only muzzles. It will be 
interesting to see if he can put a muzzle patch on their lambs.

Thanks,
Linda



Katherine Williamson wrote:

> I belong to the Jacob Yahoo list, which doesn't have many posts, so 

> Sharon asked me to post this to OUR list and see if anyone could help 

> her. Sharon is responding to a question asking if there is such a 

> thing as a "brown" Jacob.  Not sun-bleached.

> She is trying to subscribe to this list also.  Until she is approved, 

> you may need to copy her on your responses.  Thanks!

>

> Kathey

>

> Good evening Ladies

> I seldom seem to see any posts to this Jacob list, so your questions 

> brings

> another spin on the questions to my mind.

>

> First let me introduce myself, my name is Sharon Lehrke (Sovreign Farms,

> FL), and I have been a Jacob owner for almost 9 years. I also have 

> Katahdins

> ewes which we have always kept for meat. Our Jacobs have always been the

> brains of the flock helping to keep the hornless breed safe, help in

> guarding the baby lambs and we use as lovely ornaments and pasture 

> mowing. In

> short the few we've had have always been regarded as treasures here, 

> spayed

> and the grandmothers to the entire flock. Recently I have decided to 

> breed

> Jacobs as we simply love their brains and personalities, as well as how

> hardy they are compared to our Katahdins. Also our interest in fleece is

> becoming more important.

>

> I usually just watch this list with interest hoping for insight, it never

> seems to come. This has to be the quietest list I've ever seen. Now my

> interest in your question comes as perhaps an insight to how these dilute

> colors genes do seem to relate and affect genes for other issues. Let 

> me simply

> elaborate a bit of genetics on the dilutes of black vs. chocolate,

> blue/lilac and mottle ie freckling....as I have been breeding with 

> these colors

> for nearly 38 years with my show beagles. Here are some rules we use in

> breeding these colors in our Beagles, and I'll elaborate a bit on why 

> before I

> get to my questions, so please be patient.

>

> Blue/lilac Colors is a dilute of black, best bred to black. In our case

> we always breed a blue/lilac to a black because if you breed dilute to

> dilute you start losing nose & eye pigment, very unsightly. Continuing 

> to breed

> dilute to dilute for another generation or more and you start to see the

> following.

>

> 1. Lighter and lighter pigment in nose and eye, and a casted coat, 

> usually

> getting lighter and lighter( ie: good color runs from deep slate and all

> the way down to poor color of brownish sable which gets more and more

> silvery sable as you go ,meaning shades of brown, running all the way 

> to fawn

> with a blue caste). So technically to answer your question, it would be

> possible to create a brown sheep from this gene, although I am sure it 

> would not

> be pretty.

> 2. The more dilutes bred generation to generation you start to see more

> than pigment breakdown....ie: poor coat texture all the way to alopecia

> (shorter and shorter coats, anything from what we call a seal coat 

> (similar to

> a Doberman) and as time goes on our worst offending breeders have gotten

> near hairlessness and horrible skin problems to go with it).

>

> 3. Lack of bone mass has also been a problem for some reason, and I 

> have to

> wonder if in sheep this could also affect horns.

>

> Chocolate/Khaki/ Red/Fawn/Sable- ditto are also a dilute of black. Now

> they do not seem to have the pigment breakdown of the blues, but they 

> too can

> have some issues of light eyes and noses going pink . But they tend to

> retain more of the black heritage as we may lose eye or nose pigment 

> and the

> dog appear lemony color, but that usually is as bad as it ever gets.

>

> Basically what I am saying is that to produce quality blue/lilac we breed

> as follows for optimum results.

>

> To get blues/lilacs I prefer to breed a carrier black to a carrier 

> black to

> get my blue/lilacs.

>

> If I have a blue/lilac I breed her always to black. Never would we ever

> breed blue/lilac to blue/lilac, or even to anything in the brown 

> family as

> we would get muddy brown looking blue/lilacs, and bad eye & nose pigment.

>

> Now before anyone gets hostile on this, the same color genes for lilac

> sheep, appear in many species, cats, dogs, rabbits, horses, goats, 

> etc......all

> can have these same problems according to geneticists.

>

> Mottling/Freckling - In the last 6-7 years we have found that in the home

> country of our beagles (England) the colors are more intense and they 

> have

> fewer color inherited problems because England has allowed the mottling

> gene in their lines as a failsafe, while American breeders all but 

> excised it

> from the gene pool to the Beagles detriment. Upon discovering this in a

> trip to England, we promptly imported a mottled stud dog to infuse our

> blue/lilacs and even our chocolates & reds deeper richer pigment and 

> more intense

> color as well as more eye and nose pigment. It has been very successful.

> So if for instance I had unstable pigment or horn structure in a lilac I

> think I would try to find a freckled sheep with as much black skin as 

> possible

> and see if I could fix the problem. Often the animals carrying the

> mottled/freckled gene will be blessed with a lot of black skin 

> pigment, which is

> what geneticists seem to think makes the big correction. In other 

> words we

> were told to actually search for animals with deep skin pigment to solve

> problems.

>

> Now before you mention it, yes I realize that freckling in the fleece is

> not desirable according to the standard, but as in the Beagle 75 years of

> breeding they make the discovery that the problems could be solved in one

> breeding. What if you are disgarding some critical gene to keeping lilacs

> healthy as an example?

>

> So what I want to know is has anyone seen any of these trends in Jacobs?

>

> Has anyone attempted using a freckled fleeced Jacob to a Lilac missing

> pigment or horn structure to try to fix the problem? .

>

> My point to this is that by sharing information by breeders we all learn

> something, how to breed for better results in our babies. My 

> preference has

> always been quality not quantity, so I try to make every breeding count.

>

> Sharon Lehrke

> Sovreign Farms

> FL

> _sovreignfarms at aol.com <mailto:_sovreignfarms%40aol.com>_ 

> (mailto:sovreignfarms at aol.com <mailto:sovreignfarms%40aol.com>)

>

>

>

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