[Jacob-list] skulls and SUED

[ranchrat]

Hi All 
Skulls and SUED. I know this is discussed every few months - here in
Britain it has come up again, this time on the Shetland Breeders group.
You might not expect that, but every now and then four horned
individuals appear within the Shetland Breed and the incidence of SUED
in them is very high. 
My question is: has anyone over there in America, where you are able to
get your hands on your animals skulls, which we are not here in Britain,
seen any bony defect of the orbit in animals know to have had split
upper eyelids? 
Of course everyone has their own ideas of the cause and inheritance of
four horns and SUED - here there are two main factions, one saying that
SUED is part of the split of the horns, extending down into the bone of
the orbit; the second opinion says that the defect is limited to the
soft tissues. I have seen skulls of four horned sheep known to have had
split eyelids, but with no bony defect and I have not seen one
displaying a defect, but my experience is very limited as we are not
allowed to retrieve skulls from the abattoir. 
Your experiences would be very helpful - thank you. 
Juliet Johnston 
Scotland UK 
-------------- 

Heel low Juliet:

I've seen no reply to your post on the list, so here goes.

In Ingrid Painter's excellent book, "Jacob Sheep in America," page 29
shows a black and white photo of a four horn skull with a notched upper
portion in the white skull's right side eye socket.  Caption reads,
"Figure 24.  Skull showing deformity in the upper part of the eye
socket."   

Here then is documented and published proof that you seek, "bony defect
of the orbit in animals know to have had split upper eyelids."

Page 30 states, "These examples are the worst kind and often render the
sheep blind in that eye.  These are heritable faults so the sheep should
not be kept for breeding."

Here I have my own personal experiences to draw upon.  Yes, the sheep
will probably become blind in the eye with type 4 SUED if nothing is
done.  Dust would not be sweept out of the eye with a notch in the
eyelid and I can only imagine the discomfort of that situation!!  I had
a ram lamb, full birth brother to a six horn ewe (sire 2-horn, dam
four-horn which I will address shortly) born as a four-horn.  Right from
birth, you could see his top eye lids were notched in both eyes.  I felt
he was a type four tho Ingrid's type four was more extreme than his.  I
left him intact until he was six months old.my vet well warned and
prepared.took him in for surgery (sedation is NOT received well by
ruminants.it was risking his life as my vet advised me, we could have
lost him on the table or from not coming out of sedation).  Long story
short, he is a full and active "it" here, providing me with one of the
MOST lovely fleeces (he was soft as a pillow to start and sans the
testosterone now.still very nice).  No, I did not use him to breed and I
often wondered "what if" but was chicken to try.  How many more $300
bills is my husband and I suppose to shrug off as legitimate expenses
raising Jacobs.most would have bought mint sauce and prepared the ram
lamb accordingly.I have never heard of any other soul, having eye
surgery performed on a Jacob to correct SUED.speak up if you have, I'd
be delighted to hear of shared insanity.

When this Jacob finally passes, I will make sure and render his skull
and send you a photo of his skull pending you do not change addys.  I
unfortunately do not have pictures of his type 4 eyelids, didn't have a
digital back then.I took pics and when I developed the film, it was all
fuzzy!!  Sigh.

I have been told that in Scotland, and Juliet, you can answer me
privately or here on the list as to whether I have heard correctly, but
in Scotland they took to breeding for two horn Jacobs, in the hopes to
avoid split eye deformities all together.  I am also advised that even
two horned sheep express split eye deformities.  I think someone on the
list mentioned examples seen of two horn sheep that had this???

Now regarding people's preferences not to use two-horns here in North
America.thinking 2-horns only throw the same when they want all four
horns or more.  This two horn, he was from four-horn  parents and the
four horn dam, was also from 4-horn parents as well.with this lineage,
there was no issue and a two horn sire produced a four horn ram and a
six horn ewe.the splitting of the horn core, obviously was a little
extreme in the male's side.  He is considerably less big than intact
rams of the same age, but his dam is not huge, so I cannot concur that
altering him has made him smaller than he should be as an adult.his horn
growth is reduced and matches his body size.  I have heard that horn
growth becomes retarded when you alter a male horned sheep.

Hope this helps you.

Doggone,

Tara

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