From ACAMDA at aol.com  Tue Feb  4 10:20:13 2003
From: ACAMDA at aol.com (ACAMDA@aol.com)
Date: Wed Feb  2 07:53:32 2005
Subject: [Jacob-list] FYI
Message-ID: <f.9099677.2b71342d@aol.com>

It's been so quiet on the list I thought I'd pass this along. (Hope I haven't 
been dropped from the list!)

I also belong to a LISTSERV for Belted Galloway cattle, as they are listed by 
the ALBC as rare.  We only have one cow, but the info can be interesting, 
particularly concerning grass-fed animals.  I don't pay much attention to the 
marketing part, but thought the idea of listing on e-bay was novel.  So I 
pass this along just as something to chew on.  Those with Jacob sheep to 
spare might want to take a look.

Kathey Williamson
Athens, GA

#1  Ebay doesn't allow animals to be sold. Seems the AR nuts pressured them 
and got them to stop some time ago. This is why I started a similar website 
with focus on selling animals. I am happy to say it is only a month old and 
we have had over 7700 hits. The more people you tell about it the better the 
site will do which means the more stuff will sell. It is free to list stuff 
and pictures are free too. And you have the choice of listing your item as a 
classified or as an auction. So, try and support the site!!!
?Diane NC
?Buy and sell critters n things online for FREE
?<A HREF="http://www.dogcrazykennels.com/cgi-bin/auction/main.pl">http://www.dogcrazykennels.com/cgi-bin/auction/main.pl</A>


#2  As was mentioned, I don't think they allow live animal sales on e-bay.? 
However, I have seen stud services for horses on e-bay.? I think the breeders 
were using it primarily to get people interested in their horses and farms. ? 
So, if someone wanted to sell frozen semen, they might be able to get it 
listed on e-bay and then have pictures of the bull and his calves. ? It could 
be a good way to get some publicity. ? The e-bay ads for stud service usually 
have a link to the farm, but I would think a link to the Belted Galloway 
website would also be good.
Mary Sapp
?


?



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From blotham at yahoo.com  Wed Feb  5 09:51:30 2003
From: blotham at yahoo.com (Abigail Brown)
Date: Wed Feb  2 07:53:32 2005
Subject: [Jacob-list] Fickle Sheep
Message-ID: <20030205145130.97430.qmail@web20009.mail.yahoo.com>

Hello to all~ I don't post too often, though I read everyone's comments with eagerness, I could not pass up this observation that I made this morning w/ the girls. In the past we have bought baled hay to feed, and stored it in the car-port, taking it to the sheep in a wheel barrel. This year because of drought in our area, we aquired round bales to feed this winter.  The round bales are next to the paddock that the girls are in (7 ewes), I peel off the hay off the round bale, put it in the wheel barrel so that in the dark mornings all I have to do is pick up some hay and throw it over the fence. Since I don't have to go to work until 1:00pm today, instead of the usual 7:00am, I didn't have to feed in the dark. Well today there was a lot of small pieces in the bottom of the wheel barrel (being alfalfa), so I decided to take their portion in the wheel barrel, go into their pen and dump the hay. They wouldn't touch it!!! It is now 2 hours after putting that hay in their pen and they still haven't touched the hay!  Abigail Brown Shiloh FarmsPetersburg, IN


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From pegaleg2 at juno.com  Wed Feb  5 09:59:23 2003
From: pegaleg2 at juno.com (marguerite e vanbeek)
Date: Wed Feb  2 07:53:32 2005
Subject: [Jacob-list] NEWBORN LAMBS WRONG MOM
Message-ID: <20030205.095925.-734191.0.pegaleg2@juno.com>

On January 30th during the day when I was at work there were two lambs
born.  I assumed because of there attachment that one
went  to an older ewe Anne and the other to the new mom, Mullen.  Both
were ram lambs.  At first I thought it was odd that they were born on the
same day but I figured it has happened with my horses why not sheep.  The
other odd thing was Mullen kept trying to lick the other lamb but Anne
would circle and move it on away from Mullen.  Both were nursing and
healthy.  Well.........yesterday the 4th when I went to feed at night
there was a newborn ewe lamb and it was obvious that is was Anne's due to
the placenta was still waiting to be expelled.  It seems that Anne the
older ewe stole the ram lamb which was a twin from Mulllen.  I guess she
couldn't wait for her's to be born.  The only problem I have is that the
colostrum was evidently nurse out days ago and know the newborn has none
for herself.  Any suggestions???  Should I give her shots or just let it
be.   I have no other ewes ready to lamb at this moment they are apporx.
a month away.  

Has anyone ever have this happen?

Peggy


From pcj at efn.org  Wed Feb  5 10:15:36 2003
From: pcj at efn.org (Penelope)
Date: Wed Feb  2 07:53:32 2005
Subject: [Jacob-list] NEWBORN LAMBS WRONG MOM
In-Reply-To: <20030205.095925.-734191.0.pegaleg2@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030205070829.01c646e0@pop.efn.org>

Sometime around 06:59 2/5/2003, marguerite e vanbeek typed:

>couldn't wait for her's to be born.  The only problem I have is that the
>colostrum was evidently nurse out days ago and know the newborn has none
>for herself.  Any suggestions???  Should I give her shots or just let it
>be.   I have no other ewes ready to lamb at this moment they are apporx.
>a month away.
>
>Has anyone ever have this happen?

To the best of my knowledge, as a lactating person, the colostrum will be 
the milk the body makes until a day or two after giving birth.  So Anne 
should have plenty of colostrum for her new lamb too.  Are you letting her 
keep both lambs, or are you going to move the ram back to Mullen?


-- 
Penelope Jacob pcj@efn.org
parent, doula, farmer, birth & breastfeeding activist.
***War doesn't decide who is right. Only who's left.***
Attachment parenting a busy, spirited, nursing toddler.




From MarmontJacobs at aol.com  Wed Feb  5 10:59:00 2003
From: MarmontJacobs at aol.com (MarmontJacobs@aol.com)
Date: Wed Feb  2 07:53:32 2005
Subject: [Jacob-list] Re: Wrong Mum
Message-ID: <27.3855d3cb.2b728ec4@aol.com>

Hi - yes, we've had this happen. The ewe in question stole the first two of 
quads and suckled them for 24 hours before I guessed what she was up to ( I 
had been away until very late, dh was in charge, and they weren't expected!). 
She looked guilty, so I checked under her tail the next morning and she was 
rumbled.

Returning a lamb didn't work (the 4th was stillborn) as once the milk has 
passed through a lamb it smells wrong and visually now looks wrong too. The 
ewe in question produced enormous twins the following day.

On the colostrum front - catch the ewe and milk a little out. If it's still 
yellow, you should be fine, but if the ram lamb is scoffing the lot (bigger 
and stronger and more experienced so likely to be) then the ewe lamb with the 
weaker suck isn't going to get any. You could try tying up his birth mother 
tight and let him suckle her, penning him in a corner of his adoptive mum's 
pen so he can't pinch all the milk. We did for a month with one of the quads 
as he was too nice to bottle feed ( I never keep bottled rams)...but mind she 
doesn't kick. When the ewe lamb is stronger in two or three days say you 
could put him back all the time but watch for mastitis with the possible 
uneven suckling.

Re shots - I'm pretty sure you aren't to use these until two weeks of age 
minimum because of their immature immune systems. 

Trisha, Wales


From Jacobflock at aol.com  Wed Feb  5 19:19:51 2003
From: Jacobflock at aol.com (Jacobflock@aol.com)
Date: Wed Feb  2 07:53:32 2005
Subject: [Jacob-list] No colostrum in the freezer
Message-ID: <186.15aa53bb.2b730427@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/5/03 9:01:45 AM Central Standard Time, pegaleg2@juno.com 
writes:


> The only problem I have is that the
> colostrum was evidently nurse out days ago and know the newborn has none
> for herself.  Any suggestions???  Should I give her shots or just let it
> be.   I have no other ewes ready to lamb at this moment they are apporx.
> a month away.  
> 

Fred Horak with Laura Lawson's book...Colostrum is produced up to about 18 
hours after lambing.  The antibodies produced by the ewe prior to lambing are 
passed to the lamb with the colostrum (inoculate before lambing).  Colostrum 
provides passive immunity until the lamb can build its own immunity by 
vaccinmation or exposure.  The ability to transfer the antibodies via 
colostrum to the blood stream actually declines 12 to 15 hours after birth.  
If a lamb does not receive any colostrum, it will not have a passive immune 
system and thus a vacination (a dose of the disease) without any antibody 
protection, may make the lamb more susceptible to disease ... esp. 
enterotoxemia and tetanus.

However, one can administer C&D antitoxin short term) and at the same time 
Clostridium perfrigens C&D toxoid (longer term).  It is recommended that 
these be given in opposite sides.  Follow up with a second (repeat) 
vacination in 2 to 3 weeks, a third dose of toxoid 3 to 4 weeks later. The 
tetanus issue can be done with a antitoxin-toxoid treat as done for 
enterotoxemia (over eaters).  It is important to do the opposite sides of the 
body for the antittoxin (antibodies) and toxoid (germs).

When the first lamb is born, we try to "steal" about 8-12 oz of colostrum.  
The best source is a ewe that has previously lambed (multiparious) and 
singles (has a little extra to give).  We do the boosters before lambing so 
the ewe will pass on the immunity.  The stolen colostrum can be placed in a 
Glad seal bag and placed in the freezer...mark the mom and date ... keep a 
bag around until you steal another bag of colostrum the following year.  
"Thaw the Glad bag in warm water ... do not place it in boiling water or 
micro-wave...it can kill the antibodies..." L.Pasteur.

Hope this is in time to do some good.  Fred Horak
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From wheaten at bellatlantic.net  Sun Feb  9 16:29:17 2003
From: wheaten at bellatlantic.net (Dr. David Lincicome)
Date: Wed Feb  2 07:53:32 2005
Subject: [Jacob-list] No colostrum in the freezer
References: <186.15aa53bb.2b730427@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3E46C82D.8070101@bellatlantic.net>

1620 hrs/Sunday 9 February 2003


Since the permeability of the intestinal epithelium of newborns  to 
permit absorption of colostrum has a short half life it is well make 
sure newborns get colostrum within the first 6 hours.

David Richard Lincicome, Ph.D.,PAS, DACAP, DABM

Jacobflock@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 2/5/03 9:01:45 AM Central Standard Time, 
> pegaleg2@juno.com writes:
>
>
>> The only problem I have is that the
>> colostrum was evidently nurse out days ago and know the newborn has none
>> for herself.  Any suggestions???  Should I give her shots or just let it
>> be.   I have no other ewes ready to lamb at this moment they are apporx.
>> a month away. 
>
>
>
> Fred Horak with Laura Lawson's book...Colostrum is produced up to 
> about 18 hours after lambing.  The antibodies produced by the ewe 
> prior to lambing are passed to the lamb with the colostrum (inoculate 
> before lambing).  Colostrum provides passive immunity until the lamb 
> can build its own immunity by vaccinmation or exposure.  The ability 
> to transfer the antibodies via colostrum to the blood stream actually 
> declines 12 to 15 hours after birth.  If a lamb does not receive any 
> colostrum, it will not have a passive immune system and thus a 
> vacination (a dose of the disease) without any antibody protection, 
> may make the lamb more susceptible to disease ... esp. enterotoxemia 
> and tetanus.
>
> However, one can administer C&D antitoxin short term) and at the same 
> time Clostridium perfrigens C&D toxoid (longer term).  It is 
> recommended that these be given in opposite sides.  Follow up with a 
> second (repeat) vacination in 2 to 3 weeks, a third dose of toxoid 3 
> to 4 weeks later. The tetanus issue can be done with a 
> antitoxin-toxoid treat as done for enterotoxemia (over eaters).  It is 
> important to do the opposite sides of the body for the antittoxin 
> (antibodies) and toxoid (germs).
>
> When the first lamb is born, we try to "steal" about 8-12 oz of 
> colostrum.  The best source is a ewe that has previously lambed 
> (multiparious) and singles (has a little extra to give).  We do the 
> boosters before lambing so the ewe will pass on the immunity.  The 
> stolen colostrum can be placed in a Glad seal bag and placed in the 
> freezer...mark the mom and date ... keep a bag around until you steal 
> another bag of colostrum the following year.  "Thaw the Glad bag in 
> warm water ... do not place it in boiling water or micro-wave...it can 
> kill the antibodies..." L.Pasteur.
>
> Hope this is in time to do some good.  Fred Horak






From spahrfarm at dragonbbs.com  Tue Feb 11 12:06:36 2003
From: spahrfarm at dragonbbs.com (Mary Spahr)
Date: Wed Feb  2 07:53:33 2005
Subject: [Jacob-list] Fw:  Invitation to promote your animals
Message-ID: <000801c2d1ef$f1c677e0$2f449ed8@n2g2k3>

Invitation to promote your animals
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Deirdre Tarr 
To: ddtarr@usit.net 
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 12:06 AM
Subject: Invitation to promote your animals


Hi,

I just wanted to let you know that you are invited to promote & sell your animals at this event - Tenth Annual Rare Breed Livestock, Miniature, & Pet Expo - at the Fairgrounds in Knoxville, TN on May 16 & 17, 2003.  We are sending out applications now and offer a discount until the end of February.  If you are interested, please send me your postal mailing address (or you can check out our online application under the Expo Application link on our website http://www.HeartsongTripleDFarm.com 

If you are a member of any lists and could post this info to them, I would certainly appreciate it and any other help you could give in helping spread the word.  If you have a newsletter that would let you add this to the Calendar of Events that would be great. Please let me know if you have any questions.

Tenth Annual Rare Breed Livestock, Miniature, & Pet Expo - May 16 & 17, Fairgrounds Knoxville, Tennessee. Features broad range of breeds from large hoofstock to fiber and working animals to tiny unique pets with a special focus on rare breeds.  Discount through the end of February. Thousands attend! Market for ALL breeds in one centralized location. Contact: Heartsong Triple D Farm for more info at http://www.HeartsongTripleDFarm.com  or ddtarr@usit.net or 865-475-3777

Deirdre  865-475-3777

For beautiful pictures and great animal oriented information check our web site:

http://www.HeartsongTripleDFarm.com

Be sure you know the condition of your flocks, give careful attention to your herds.  Proverbs 27:23

Sponsor of the

Tenth Rare Breed Livestock, Miniature, & Pet Expo  

May 16 & 17, 2003 - Fairgrounds Knoxville, TN



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From perfectspot at blueridge.net  Wed Feb 12 21:59:15 2003
From: perfectspot at blueridge.net (Cathy Robinson)
Date: Wed Feb  2 07:53:33 2005
Subject: [Jacob-list] Perfect Spot Update
Message-ID: <3E4B0A03.D7CF34D6@blueridge.net>

No lambs are expected here until after March 1.  It has been fun to
share in the excitement with those of you
that have already begun.

Linda graciously offered to update webpages on her site recently, and
again we thank her for the service she provides to all of us.    For
now, as we await newcomers,  we are updated with very generic
information  at:

http://www.patchworkfibers.com/robinson.html

Cathy Robinson
Perfect Spot Farm


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From GBAnderson at UCDavis.Edu  Fri Feb 14 18:32:41 2003
From: GBAnderson at UCDavis.Edu (Anderson, Gary B.)
Date: Wed Feb  2 07:53:33 2005
Subject: [Jacob-list] Poor Dolly
Message-ID: <D6C0922DBFD9FC49B431481CC6D66FA35E3DC8@asmail.ucdavis.edu>

Jacob lambs just might be coming soon to your local Fox channel.  Several
media folks have contacted me to comment on Dolly the cloned sheep's death.
A group from the San Francisco Fox TV affiliate asked that its spot be shot
with sheep in the background, which we accommodated at the campus sheep
facility.  The TV crew seemed more interested in the Jacob lambs bouncing
around their non-Jacob mothers than in Dolly.  The lambs are part of an
embryo transfer research project underway.  In the end I was asked more
about Jacob sheep than about Dolly.  If the Jacob sheep story is picked up
by other affiliates, you might see it on your local FOX channel.  I'll be
interested in hearing if the story makes it beyond the San Francisco area
(gbanderson@ucdavis.edu).


From stonecroft235 at juno.com  Fri Feb 14 20:24:59 2003
From: stonecroft235 at juno.com (stonecroft235@juno.com)
Date: Wed Feb  2 07:53:33 2005
Subject: [Jacob-list] (no subject)
Message-ID: <20030214.202459.-493223.0.stonecroft235@juno.com>

Gary, bet those "traditional" ewes are pretty surprised by their spotted,
intelligent offspring who seemingly spring to life immediately following
birth, nursing voraciously, and bouncing around immediately when compared
to their typical, academically challenged offspring.  OK, OK, I am a bit
biased!!!  (Can't wait for our ewes to lamb - we will start the middle of
March.)

Sue Martin
Stonecroft
Lititz, PA

________________________________________________________________
Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
Only $9.95 per month!
Visit www.juno.com


From alexj at tesseractiongames.com  Tue Feb 18 22:50:23 2003
From: alexj at tesseractiongames.com (TGI: Alex Jimenez)
Date: Wed Feb  2 07:53:33 2005
Subject: [Jacob-list] Starting off
Message-ID: <000a01c2d7ca$0841f0a0$1100000a@tgi.net>

Bear with me as I am very new to this. My wife and I purchased a small farm in Fall Creek Oregon about two years ago and we just purchased some Jacob sheep (actually I'm the one that wanted Jacob sheep, my wife wanted regular sheep, I find regular sheep to be too stupid, in fact they get my vote for dumbest animal on the planet. Jacob sheep on the other hand looked like bright, relatively intelligent animals). We are currently raising a small (6 head) herd of cattle and one cashmere nanny goat (my wife's pet). Can Jacobs' be mixed with these animals or will we have to put them in a separate pasture? We currently have two a rams and three ewes. At this time they are all in separate pastures with the rams being kept separate from the ewes. Do Jacobs need a larger flock? When would be a good time to put the rams and ewes together. 

As you can tell by my questions, I'm somewhat new to this (my wife is a Minnesota farm girl, I'm a New York City street boy. I feel like I'm on Green Acres and unfortunately in the Eva Gabor role!), we've had some success with the cattle and feel we're now ready for sheep, and as I said before Jacob sheep just looked smarter than the regular sheep I see at the auctions. Any information you can provide would be greatly appreciated. 

alexj@tesseractiongames.com





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From messen at socket.net  Wed Feb 19 00:51:52 2003
From: messen at socket.net (Mark Essen)
Date: Wed Feb  2 07:53:33 2005
Subject: [Jacob-list] Starting off
References: <000a01c2d7ca$0841f0a0$1100000a@tgi.net>
Message-ID: <003001c2d7db$1ca54cc0$64e1fea9@oemcomputer>

You may get many responses to the mixing of animals.  I just returned from the barnyard where I have Emus, young cattle, young yak, pyrenees dogs, llama geldings, pygmy goats, Jacobs sheep, pot-bellied pigs, red deer, fallow deer, and young elk.  All eating out of the same feeders.  You have to know your animals, and the special needs they need at special times.  At any given point in time, you may find any of these animals separated.  
I find that mixing animals also help protect from predators.
Mark Essen
Famous Acres
6701 County Road 353
Fulton, Mo.  65251
(573)642-0350
messen@socket.net
Jacobs 4-Horn Sheep, Pygmy Goats, Pyrenees, Peafowl, Highland Cattle, Yak, Emu, Wallabies, Patagonian Cavies, Eland, and Fallow Deer all living together in the Kingdom of Callaway
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: TGI: Alex Jimenez 
  To: jacob-list@jacobsheep.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 9:50 PM
  Subject: [Jacob-list] Starting off


  Bear with me as I am very new to this. My wife and I purchased a small farm in Fall Creek Oregon about two years ago and we just purchased some Jacob sheep (actually I'm the one that wanted Jacob sheep, my wife wanted regular sheep, I find regular sheep to be too stupid, in fact they get my vote for dumbest animal on the planet. Jacob sheep on the other hand looked like bright, relatively intelligent animals). We are currently raising a small (6 head) herd of cattle and one cashmere nanny goat (my wife's pet). Can Jacobs' be mixed with these animals or will we have to put them in a separate pasture? We currently have two a rams and three ewes. At this time they are all in separate pastures with the rams being kept separate from the ewes. Do Jacobs need a larger flock? When would be a good time to put the rams and ewes together. 

  As you can tell by my questions, I'm somewhat new to this (my wife is a Minnesota farm girl, I'm a New York City street boy. I feel like I'm on Green Acres and unfortunately in the Eva Gabor role!), we've had some success with the cattle and feel we're now ready for sheep, and as I said before Jacob sheep just looked smarter than the regular sheep I see at the auctions. Any information you can provide would be greatly appreciated. 

  alexj@tesseractiongames.com




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From 2512 at nethawk.com  Wed Feb 19 07:00:00 2003
From: 2512 at nethawk.com (sheepythyme)
Date: Wed Feb  2 07:53:33 2005
Subject: [Jacob-list] Starting off
References: <000a01c2d7ca$0841f0a0$1100000a@tgi.net>
Message-ID: <007401c2d80e$6fbf8780$a9e312d0@S0026855099>

Dear Alex,
In my experience, sheep and goats mix fairly well, although goats are more aggressive and your sheep may not get as much food if you don't have several different feeders.
Cows are clumsy and can step on lambs.  My neighbor has not had many problems putting them together with Jacobs, so if you have no other choice I think they will be fine.  Jacobs can breed any time of year they say, but they are generally fall breeders, September or October is when we have put our breeding groups together.  You do not need a larger flock unless you want one.
Jacob sheep are perhaps the best breed to start out with, they are good mothers and can teach a new shepherd many lessons :)
Bonnie
Herb and Bonnie Sutten
Sheepy Thyme Farm~Edmore, MI
Raising CVM/Romeldale Sheep & French Angora Rabbits
www.sheepythyme.com

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: TGI: Alex Jimenez 
  To: jacob-list@jacobsheep.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 10:50 PM
  Subject: [Jacob-list] Starting off


  Bear with me as I am very new to this. My wife and I purchased a small farm in Fall Creek Oregon about two years ago and we just purchased some Jacob sheep (actually I'm the one that wanted Jacob sheep, my wife wanted regular sheep, I find regular sheep to be too stupid, in fact they get my vote for dumbest animal on the planet. Jacob sheep on the other hand looked like bright, relatively intelligent animals). We are currently raising a small (6 head) herd of cattle and one cashmere nanny goat (my wife's pet). Can Jacobs' be mixed with these animals or will we have to put them in a separate pasture? We currently have two a rams and three ewes. At this time they are all in separate pastures with the rams being kept separate from the ewes. Do Jacobs need a larger flock? When would be a good time to put the rams and ewes together. 

  As you can tell by my questions, I'm somewhat new to this (my wife is a Minnesota farm girl, I'm a New York City street boy. I feel like I'm on Green Acres and unfortunately in the Eva Gabor role!), we've had some success with the cattle and feel we're now ready for sheep, and as I said before Jacob sheep just looked smarter than the regular sheep I see at the auctions. Any information you can provide would be greatly appreciated. 

  alexj@tesseractiongames.com





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From kbarrett at oregontrail.net  Wed Feb 19 14:10:27 2003
From: kbarrett at oregontrail.net (kbarrett@oregontrail.net)
Date: Wed Feb  2 07:53:33 2005
Subject: [Jacob-list] Starting out
Message-ID: <200302191910.h1JJAR024972@oregontrail.net>

I really have to chuckle about the Eva Gabor role...I think you will love your jacob sheep. So self sufficient and easy.  Ours run with Llamas, horses, other sheep and cows with not many problems. When they are lambing we keep them separate until the lambs are about 3 weeks old and moving about pretty good. The rams have occasionally been a problem.  One ram insisted on chasing the horses, until he got kicked in the jaw. He then took to chasing calves, until all the mothers finally ganged up on him. It was pretty funny watching him being chased by 12 or so angry mama cows.  Eventually though that ram went to the big pasture in the sky as he took to chasing us!  Most of the others have done well, we keep the rams with the cows and horses until breeding season.  I have a pony who loves to herd the sheep, gets them all gathered in one spot, then he goes off and grazes and if one strays from the herd, he runs to put them back in their group. Fun for the pony, and the sheep don't!
 seem to mind too much. The best part of the year is NOW, we have 7 newborn Jacob lambs in the barn so tiny and smart.  A few more on the way. They are 100 times cuter than the market lambs, and those are pretty darn cute too. Have fun, Green Acres is the place to be!
Kate Barrett
Ruby Peak Jacobs
Lostine,OR 




From kellyandrich at earthlink.net  Wed Feb 19 17:26:53 2003
From: kellyandrich at earthlink.net (Kelly Przylepa and Rich Moore)
Date: Wed Feb  2 07:53:33 2005
Subject: [Jacob-list] Starting off
References: <000a01c2d7ca$0841f0a0$1100000a@tgi.net>
Message-ID: <004301c2d866$0222e3e0$af202940@T4150>

For all of you that want to waste some time and walk down Memory Lane, go to

http://www.maggiore.net/greenacres/gatheme.asp

to hear the Green Acres theme song. Since we are all transplanted city folk
and are new shepherds also, we sing the song around here a lot!

Kelly

Firefly Farm
Glenville, PA
----- Original Message -----
From: "TGI: Alex Jimenez" <alexj@tesseractiongames.com>
To: <jacob-list@jacobsheep.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 10:50 PM
Subject: [Jacob-list] Starting off


Bear with me as I am very new to this. My wife and I purchased a small farm
in Fall Creek Oregon about two years ago and we just purchased some Jacob
sheep (actually I'm the one that wanted Jacob sheep, my wife wanted regular
sheep, I find regular sheep to be too stupid, in fact they get my vote for
dumbest animal on the planet. Jacob sheep on the other hand looked like
bright, relatively intelligent animals). We are currently raising a small (6
head) herd of cattle and one cashmere nanny goat (my wife's pet). Can
Jacobs' be mixed with these animals or will we have to put them in a
separate pasture? We currently have two a rams and three ewes. At this time
they are all in separate pastures with the rams being kept separate from the
ewes. Do Jacobs need a larger flock? When would be a good time to put the
rams and ewes together.

As you can tell by my questions, I'm somewhat new to this (my wife is a
Minnesota farm girl, I'm a New York City street boy. I feel like I'm on
Green Acres and unfortunately in the Eva Gabor role!), we've had some
success with the cattle and feel we're now ready for sheep, and as I said
before Jacob sheep just looked smarter than the regular sheep I see at the
auctions. Any information you can provide would be greatly appreciated.

alexj@tesseractiongames.com








From alexj at tesseractiongames.com  Wed Feb 19 22:05:40 2003
From: alexj at tesseractiongames.com (TGI: Alex Jimenez)
Date: Wed Feb  2 07:53:33 2005
Subject: [Jacob-list] More questions
Message-ID: <002801c2d88d$dd086b20$1100000a@tgi.net>

Wow, I want to thank everyone for all the answers and information I got from my last set of questions! If this is a sample of the kind of help that's available out there, I don't think we'll have any trouble with our sheep. Thanks again. However, as I sift through the info I got there arose a slight contradiction. I had hoped to breed my Jacobs this spring but some of the info I got said that Jacob ewes only come into season in the fall, is this true? The sheep I have are all registered (two of them are champion winners) purebred Jacobs. I was hoping to have lambs this year (my wife hasn't exactly warmed up to these guys, I figured a little lamb would be just the thing to make her a devoted Jacob lover).Could anyone clear this up for me. If I have to wait until next spring for my ewes to produce, would it be safe to buy another lamb (assuming that I can find one) and introduce it to the flock or is it best to wait? Thanks for the help folks, I really appreciate it.

Alex J
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From alexj at tesseractiongames.com  Wed Feb 19 22:03:11 2003
From: alexj at tesseractiongames.com (TGI: Alex Jimenez)
Date: Wed Feb  2 07:53:33 2005
Subject: [Jacob-list] More questions
Message-ID: <002701c2d88d$dcd61080$1100000a@tgi.net>

Wow, I want to thank everyone for all the answers and information I got from my last set of questions! If this is a sample of the kind of help that's available out there, I don't think we'll have any trouble with our sheep. Thanks again. However, as I sift through the info I got there arose a slight contradiction. I had hoped to breed my Jacobs this spring but some of the info I got said that Jacob ewes only come into season in the fall, is this true? The sheep I have are all registered (two of them are champion winners) purebred Jacobs. I was hoping to have lambs this year (my wife hasn't exactly warmed up to these guys, I figured a little lamb would be just the thing to make her a devoted Jacob lover).Could anyone clear this up for me. If I have to wait until next spring for my ewes to produce, would it be safe to buy another lamb (assuming that I can find one) and introduce it to the flock or is it best to wait? Thanks for the help folks, I really appreciate it.

Alex J
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From rlynde at onramp113.org  Thu Feb 20 02:28:12 2003
From: rlynde at onramp113.org (rlynde)
Date: Wed Feb  2 07:53:33 2005
Subject: [Jacob-list] Starting off
References: <000a01c2d7ca$0841f0a0$1100000a@tgi.net>
Message-ID: <004601c2d8b1$a23839c0$2cd5ac41@s0028728133>

I hate to be the downer in this discussion of putting all your animals in one place. But I'll never put cattle and sheep together after our tragic experience. There is a virus called Malignant Catarral Fever that is fatal to cattle (and bison and deer) and is carried by sheep. My daughter's Milking Shorthorn heifer died of it a few years ago. I'm looking at the notes I took in talking to a vet from Wash. State:
"Almost all sheep carry this. The virus is "normal" flora of domestic sheep.
A bit sporadic. Cattle not as susceptible as deer and bison. Cows more resistant [than calves]. An isolated case here and there. Don't understand factors that determine which will get it.
Passed by nasal secretions. All sheep shed it some. But there are high shedders that are less than 10% of the population. Some say it's more of an issue at lambing. Others say it's no different then. Lambs don't shed the virus until 6 months.
A more virulent strain in Africa"
In our case, the heifer was a few months old--a big, healthy one. She came down with this after letting her run with the sheep for a few days (week?). We eventually ended up at the UC Davis Vet Hospital. Since then I have talked to vet students who have said "Oh, you that was you? I remember hearing about that case". So it's by no means widespread. In fact our vet said that she would NOT change mgt practices based on this incident. But it was an awful disease and death. Our sheep and cattle are separate now and will not be put together again.

There is (or at least was a few years ago) info about this at www.uwyo.edu/VETSCI/MCF_Q&A

Robin Lynde
Meridian Jacobs
Vacaville, CA
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: TGI: Alex Jimenez 
  To: jacob-list@jacobsheep.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 7:50 PM
  Subject: [Jacob-list] Starting off


  Bear with me as I am very new to this. My wife and I purchased a small farm in Fall Creek Oregon about two years ago and we just purchased some Jacob sheep (actually I'm the one that wanted Jacob sheep, my wife wanted regular sheep, I find regular sheep to be too stupid, in fact they get my vote for dumbest animal on the planet. Jacob sheep on the other hand looked like bright, relatively intelligent animals). We are currently raising a small (6 head) herd of cattle and one cashmere nanny goat (my wife's pet). Can Jacobs' be mixed with these animals or will we have to put them in a separate pasture? We currently have two a rams and three ewes. At this time they are all in separate pastures with the rams being kept separate from the ewes. Do Jacobs need a larger flock? When would be a good time to put the rams and ewes together. 

  As you can tell by my questions, I'm somewhat new to this (my wife is a Minnesota farm girl, I'm a New York City street boy. I feel like I'm on Green Acres and unfortunately in the Eva Gabor role!), we've had some success with the cattle and feel we're now ready for sheep, and as I said before Jacob sheep just looked smarter than the regular sheep I see at the auctions. Any information you can provide would be greatly appreciated. 

  alexj@tesseractiongames.com





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From nlgrose at yadtel.net  Thu Feb 20 05:46:28 2003
From: nlgrose at yadtel.net (Neal and Loise Grose)
Date: Wed Feb  2 07:53:33 2005
Subject: [Jacob-list] Starting off
References: <000a01c2d7ca$0841f0a0$1100000a@tgi.net> <004601c2d8b1$a23839c0$2cd5ac41@s0028728133>
Message-ID: <001101c2d8cd$52d85600$0207a8c0@COMPUTER>

Robin and all,
    My guess is that this (Malignant Catarral Fever) is most certainly not common. Our sheep and cows are in nose to nose contact with each other. We have a large dairy herd with the sheep bordered on three sides by cows. [This gives some protection from dogs since the cows will not tolerate a stray dog in the pasture. Oddly, they did NOT pay any attention to the coyote I saw walking through the cow pasture.]
    We have a huge population of White Tailed deer. Several years ago, we blood tested the whole cow herd for several things. One fourth of the cows came back positive for Blue Tongue. This resulted in frantic calls from NC Department of Agriculture about the "outbreak". We have NEVER had a case of Blue Tongue. Sheep should have been a marker species for this disease. 
    
Neal Grose
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: rlynde 
  To: TGI: Alex Jimenez ; jacob-list@jacobsheep.com 
  Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 2:28 AM
  Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Starting off


  I hate to be the downer in this discussion of putting all your animals in one place. But I'll never put cattle and sheep together after our tragic experience. There is a virus called Malignant Catarral Fever that is fatal to cattle (and bison and deer) and is carried by sheep. My daughter's Milking Shorthorn heifer died of it a few years ago. I'm looking at the notes I took in talking to a vet from Wash. State:
  "Almost all sheep carry this. The virus is "normal" flora of domestic sheep.
  A bit sporadic. Cattle not as susceptible as deer and bison. Cows more resistant [than calves]. An isolated case here and there. Don't understand factors that determine which will get it.
  Passed by nasal secretions. All sheep shed it some. But there are high shedders that are less than 10% of the population. Some say it's more of an issue at lambing. Others say it's no different then. Lambs don't shed the virus until 6 months.
  A more virulent strain in Africa"
  In our case, the heifer was a few months old--a big, healthy one. She came down with this after letting her run with the sheep for a few days (week?). We eventually ended up at the UC Davis Vet Hospital. Since then I have talked to vet students who have said "Oh, you that was you? I remember hearing about that case". So it's by no means widespread. In fact our vet said that she would NOT change mgt practices based on this incident. But it was an awful disease and death. Our sheep and cattle are separate now and will not be put together again.

  There is (or at least was a few years ago) info about this at www.uwyo.edu/VETSCI/MCF_Q&A

  Robin Lynde
  Meridian Jacobs
  Vacaville, CA
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: TGI: Alex Jimenez 
    To: jacob-list@jacobsheep.com 
    Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 7:50 PM
    Subject: [Jacob-list] Starting off


    Bear with me as I am very new to this. My wife and I purchased a small farm in Fall Creek Oregon about two years ago and we just purchased some Jacob sheep (actually I'm the one that wanted Jacob sheep, my wife wanted regular sheep, I find regular sheep to be too stupid, in fact they get my vote for dumbest animal on the planet. Jacob sheep on the other hand looked like bright, relatively intelligent animals). We are currently raising a small (6 head) herd of cattle and one cashmere nanny goat (my wife's pet). Can Jacobs' be mixed with these animals or will we have to put them in a separate pasture? We currently have two a rams and three ewes. At this time they are all in separate pastures with the rams being kept separate from the ewes. Do Jacobs need a larger flock? When would be a good time to put the rams and ewes together. 

    As you can tell by my questions, I'm somewhat new to this (my wife is a Minnesota farm girl, I'm a New York City street boy. I feel like I'm on Green Acres and unfortunately in the Eva Gabor role!), we've had some success with the cattle and feel we're now ready for sheep, and as I said before Jacob sheep just looked smarter than the regular sheep I see at the auctions. Any information you can provide would be greatly appreciated. 

    alexj@tesseractiongames.com





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From iseespots1nc at earthlink.net  Thu Feb 20 07:19:06 2003
From: iseespots1nc at earthlink.net (Mary Hansson)
Date: Wed Feb  2 07:53:33 2005
Subject: [Jacob-list] digests and stuff---and Linda B....
References: <20030220105148.515A45366C@pairlist.net>
Message-ID: <000b01c2d8da$456c70c0$34d61e43@pavilion>

Hi,

I was wondering if there was something wrong with the digest format.....got
2 this morning going back to Feb 11 at this address.

We are shearing in the rain today in NC.  41 sheep is the current
total.......What a treat.  Kevin Ford will be shearing.  :o)  There are
people coming over from Chapel Hill to learn and get some hands on
experience.  Apparently, the film clip of the shearing from about 3 or so
years ago was aired on Fox again yesterday morning locally.  I had patients
coming in during the afternoon yesterday all excited about that.

There are 2 lambs hopping around on the ground out here now from Culloden
Noble and a couple of the Culloden girls.  Both are B&W and cute to this
point.  Male and female in the sexes.

Linda Bjarkman------please have your friend e-mail me again with her fax
number as I finally got a chance (Tuesday evening) to look at it on the
computer that is being "format c-drive"'d at the shop.........I promptly
lost the fax number.  E-mail to iseespots@iseespots.com gets checked and is
safe from computer disasters.

Mary Ellen




From rlynde at onramp113.org  Thu Feb 20 12:45:58 2003
From: rlynde at onramp113.org (rlynde)
Date: Wed Feb  2 07:53:33 2005
Subject: [Jacob-list] Starting off
References: <000a01c2d7ca$0841f0a0$1100000a@tgi.net> <004601c2d8b1$a23839c0$2cd5ac41@s0028728133> <001101c2d8cd$52d85600$0207a8c0@COMPUTER>
Message-ID: <001301c2d907$eda04fa0$2cd5ac41@s0028728133>

   > My guess is that this (Malignant Catarral Fever) is most certainly not common. >

I agree that it is exhibited rarely in cattle (although the vets at WSU with whom I spoke say that most sheep carry it). In fact, our vet said not to change mgt. practices based on this experience. And most people will never have any problem. But, personally, I don't want to see this happen again, so my 2 steers (5 year old wanna-be oxen--magnificent, by the way) live separately from the sheep, as do any calves that my kids raise.
Robin
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From oberlef at supernet.com  Thu Feb 20 18:11:34 2003
From: oberlef at supernet.com (Dave & Katrina)
Date: Wed Feb  2 07:53:33 2005
Subject: [Jacob-list] lamb pictures
Message-ID: <4120032420231134310@supernet.com>

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From avillionfarm at earthlink.net  Thu Feb 20 21:22:25 2003
From: avillionfarm at earthlink.net (Elaina Kenyon)
Date: Wed Feb  2 07:53:33 2005
Subject: [Jacob-list] jacob sheep for sale - transport available
Message-ID: <BA7AF791.1E3D%avillionfarm@earthlink.net>

Humbug Rebekah - 2 horn, beautiful markings, fine handspinning fleece.  She
is double registered and also an easy lamber and excellent mother.  Bred to
a shetland ram this year will come with crossbred lamb (not yet born, but
soon to be born) at side.  $250.  You can see her on my website
(http://www.avillionfarm.com)

St. Jude's Meredith - blue-eyes, 6 horns, exquisite fleece, JSC registered.
$100.  Contact Kate Shirley for details (humbug7@worldnet.att.net)

Either of these sheep can be delivered for additional fee anywhere along
I-40 (would have to meet us at exit or rest stop) from Raleigh area to
western TN on March 14.



From karen at benjaminfarms.com  Fri Feb 21 00:01:10 2003
From: karen at benjaminfarms.com (Karen)
Date: Wed Feb  2 07:53:33 2005
Subject: [Jacob-list] Felting needle
Message-ID: <3E55B296.7070705@benjaminfarms.com>

    Awhile ago someone on the Jacob list mentioned using a felting 
needle.  I have been trying to find one locally and no one here in Utah 
seems to know about them.  Does anyone know where I would be able to 
purchase a felting needle and does anyone have any pictures of projects 
they have done with one? Thanks
Karen Sigler
Benjamin Farms,  Utah



From karen at benjaminfarms.com  Fri Feb 21 00:27:54 2003
From: karen at benjaminfarms.com (Karen)
Date: Wed Feb  2 07:53:33 2005
Subject: [Jacob-list] ps
Message-ID: <3E55B8DA.5030603@benjaminfarms.com>

    Thanks for all the baby pictures... they are sooo cute.  I keep 
going out and checking my ewe,  rubbing her belly, seeing if I can tell 
if she is going to have any babies soon.  But no luck.  I am beginning 
to think my ram did not do his job last fall with my ewes.  We were 
hoping for babies the beginning of Feb. but no such luck yet.  Everyone 
keeps telling me the weather has been too nice.  Lambs always come on 
the coldest,  stormiest night of the year.
Karen Sigler
Benjamin Farms,  Utah



From Emma at netins.net  Fri Feb 21 17:45:07 2003
From: Emma at netins.net (Bill Thompson)
Date: Wed Feb  2 07:53:33 2005
Subject: [Jacob-list] Felting needle
References: <3E55B296.7070705@benjaminfarms.com>
Message-ID: <00a601c2d9fa$e312b2a0$486198d1@0016434000>

Hi, I can send you some pictures if you like.  I love working with needle
felting and teach locally to all ages.
My photo/e-mail will attach it to just an e-mail.  It won't be a separate
attachment.  Will this be O.K.?
Lou Anne in S.W. Iowa
----- Original Message -----
From: Karen <karen@benjaminfarms.com>
To: <jacob-list@jacobsheep.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 11:01 PM
Subject: [Jacob-list] Felting needle


>     Awhile ago someone on the Jacob list mentioned using a felting
> needle.  I have been trying to find one locally and no one here in Utah
> seems to know about them.  Does anyone know where I would be able to
> purchase a felting needle and does anyone have any pictures of projects
> they have done with one? Thanks
> Karen Sigler
> Benjamin Farms,  Utah
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Jacob-list mailing list
> Jacob-list@jacobsheep.com
> http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list



From 2512 at nethawk.com  Fri Feb 21 17:58:31 2003
From: 2512 at nethawk.com (sheepythyme)
Date: Wed Feb  2 07:53:33 2005
Subject: [Jacob-list] Felting needle
References: <3E55B296.7070705@benjaminfarms.com>
Message-ID: <002301c2d9fc$c1e56ee0$9fe712d0@S0026855099>

Hi Karen,
I have felting needles:  $10 for 15   3 1/2 inch needles if you are still
looking for some.
Bonnie
Herb and Bonnie Sutten
Sheepy Thyme Farm~Edmore, MI
Raising CVM/Romeldale Sheep & French Angora Rabbits
www.sheepythyme.com



>     Awhile ago someone on the Jacob list mentioned using a felting
> needle.  I have been trying to find one locally and no one here in Utah
> seems to know about them.  Does anyone know where I would be able to
> purchase a felting needle and does anyone have any pictures of projects
> they have done with one? Thanks
> Karen Sigler
> Benjamin Farms,  Utah




From RnS1260 at aol.com  Sat Feb 22 20:42:37 2003
From: RnS1260 at aol.com (RnS1260@aol.com)
Date: Wed Feb  2 07:53:33 2005
Subject: [Jacob-list] Ram advice
Message-ID: <124.1ec7156d.2b89810d@aol.com>

This is my first season breeding Jacob sheep. I have two rams, one has 
beautiful dark and evenly spaced horns and a sticking face. After sheering I 
found that he is quite freckled. He is also very friendly, which I try to 
ignore and tell him to go on. The other ram is nicely marked and such a 
gentleman but has horns very close to his head. We had to trim the inside of 
one horn this past season. I do have several ewes with freckling and would 
like to try to breed this out. I am considering starting over with a new ram. 
What would your advice be for me on my existing rams? I know I need to move 
on. Are they sellable or am I passing on negative traits? I want to do the 
right thing. Your advice is most appreciated.
Thank you,
Cheryl
Rise "N" Shine Farm
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From snielsen at orednet.org  Sat Feb 22 21:47:05 2003
From: snielsen at orednet.org (Susan Nielsen)
Date: Wed Feb  2 07:53:33 2005
Subject: [Jacob-list] Phrase of the Moon?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0302221840290.7292-100000@lab.oregonvos.net>

My mother used to say that: It must be a phrase of the moon...

Anyway, how come do you suppose all the rams get pissy on the same
day?

The yearlings were beating the stuffing out of each other today.
Two of them even got tangled in each other and had to be rescued,
like rutting bucks on Animal Kingdom (I was thinking of using the
subject line: Knotheads). The 2 year-old took a swing at me and
cracked me a good one on the kneecap. Even my gentleman Big John
was waving his headgear around like a madman. It's like everyone
is in a frenzy for a head-fight.

Spring fever?

Susan
--
Susan Layne Nielsen, Shambles Workshops      	|"...Gently down the
Beavercreek, OR, USA -- snielsen@orednet.org  	|stream..." -- Anon.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Purveyors of fine honey, Jacob Sheep, Ashford spinning products
			and Interweave books





From snielsen at orednet.org  Sun Feb 23 16:32:51 2003
From: snielsen at orednet.org (Susan Nielsen)
Date: Wed Feb  2 07:53:33 2005
Subject: [Jacob-list] Phrase of the Moon?
In-Reply-To: <MBBBKKNFHJGBLJIAICLBAEOBEBAA.creaganlios@prexar.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0302231328380.29352-100000@lab.oregonvos.net>

On Sun, 23 Feb 2003, Thomas Simmons wrote:

> "Spring fever?"
>
> Susan,  are your ewes getting ready to lamb? I have found that a day or two
> before lambing, the ewes must emit some pheremones or something and the rams
> begin to act just like mating season all over again.  The one-to-two years
> old rams seemed to be the worse. (Those youngn's just didn;t have all those
> scents precisely nailed down yet...)

Yes! (Duh... -- now that I put my brain in forward)

You and Betty Berlenbach (in an off-list note) both nailed it, I am
thinking. We are not quite within a day or two here, but are within a week
or so.

Thanks!

Susan (nursing that ram-whacked knee-cap).
--
Susan Layne Nielsen, Shambles Workshops      	|"...Gently down the
Beavercreek, OR, USA -- snielsen@orednet.org  	|stream..." -- Anon.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Purveyors of fine honey, Jacob Sheep, Ashford spinning products
			and Interweave books



From creaganlios at prexar.com  Sun Feb 23 07:39:41 2003
From: creaganlios at prexar.com (Thomas Simmons)
Date: Wed Feb  2 07:53:33 2005
Subject: [Jacob-list] Phrase of the Moon?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0302221840290.7292-100000@lab.oregonvos.net>
Message-ID: <MBBBKKNFHJGBLJIAICLBAEOBEBAA.creaganlios@prexar.com>

"Spring fever?"

Susan,  are your ewes getting ready to lamb? I have found that a day or two
before lambing, the ewes must emit some pheremones or something and the rams
begin to act just like mating season all over again.  The one-to-two years
old rams seemed to be the worse. (Those youngn's just didn;t have all those
scents precisely nailed down yet...)

Thom



From Jacobflock at aol.com  Mon Feb 24 12:40:41 2003
From: Jacobflock at aol.com (Jacobflock@aol.com)
Date: Wed Feb  2 07:53:33 2005
Subject: [Jacob-list] Ram: Freckles/Ticking
Message-ID: <9c.2e399a1a.2b8bb319@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/22/2003 7:45:10 PM Central Standard Time, 
RnS1260@aol.com writes:

> After sheering I found that he is quite freckled. He is also very friendly, 
> which I try to ignore and tell him to go on. The other ram is nicely marked 
> and such a gentleman but has horns very close to his head. We had to trim 
> the inside of one horn this past season. I do have several ewes with 
> freckling and would like to try to breed this out. I am considering 
> starting over with a new ram. What would your advice be for me on my 
> existing rams? I know I need to move on. Are they sellable or am I passing 
> on negative traits? 


Shearing is often "discovery" time when we see each sheep "up close".  The 
term "freckles" is commonly used to describe three observed situations; some 
genetic, some environmental. 
(1) black fiber coming from black skin as a condition from birth.  This 
condition is the result of the absence of the recessive piebald activity on 
the eumelanin (black) melanocytes (like a dye in a fiber/hair pore) that 
results in a little freckle of black fiber to appear.  The piebald pattern 
and freckles seen at birth were set up in the embryo ... neural crest cells 
along the back ... and is "sort of" fixed for life.  Melanocytes (spotting) 
come from neural crest cells ... as do cells related to the nervous system.  
Understand that at birth every primary hair follicle is associated with a 
dozen(?) secondary wool follicles. This is a "freckle".
(2) black fiber coming from spots that were NOT present at birth and continue 
to increase in number over time is the result of a ticking gene.  Ticking 
appears as increasing in number and density over time.  Ticking is dominant 
and in the extreme can get so dense as to give the appearance of a grey or 
even black fleece.  At shearing the spots may appear to have become a 
"single" spot comprised of multiple spots.  It can take time to observe and 
identify the ticking gene ... two to four years.  One downside of buying 
lambs is not knowing if the ticking gene is present.  Freckles and ticking 
can appear on the same animal.
(3) black spots on the skin that produce white fiber.  This is usually skin 
mottling but is often referred to a freckles like the spots on our skin.

There is also an environmental factor.  The UV rays of the sun can excite 
melanin and give rise to freckles as a protective reaction to UV rays.  These 
"freckles" often appear on the back of the sheep.

The down side of ticking seems to be its dominant nature.  Freckling in 
Jacobs may not be as straight forward.  Freckles may be dominant over no 
freckles. Freckles are not apparently associated with lilac Jacobs.  

There may be a market for the fiber in the handspinning group but propogation 
of the trait could be a detriment to the breed.  The freckle and ticking 
trait is noted by Jacob organizations (Britain and North America) as a 
cautionary or less desired trait.  Caution should be used so that traits are 
not bred to the extreme nor become so pervasive that the basic Jacob 
phenotype is lost.

In some cases a breeder looks for a ram lamb to use immediately in the Fall 
(say at 6-8 months of age).  Understand the Jacob matures slowly and the 
traits observed as a lamb may be disappointing as a yearling or two year old. 
 Finding a proven, unrelated ram, may take time but can benefit your flock 
and the breed over the longer term.

Fred Horak


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From mhansson1 at triad.rr.com  Mon Feb 24 21:40:00 2003
From: mhansson1 at triad.rr.com (Mary Ellen Hansson)
Date: Wed Feb  2 07:53:33 2005
Subject: [Jacob-list] Ram: Freckles/Ticking
In-Reply-To: <9c.2e399a1a.2b8bb319@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000001c2dc77$346d4330$ee691a42@hanssonrjth5yb>

Hi,
 
That yearling shearing is really an eye-opener for lots of us.  You can
often tell that an animal is freckled from early on if you look very
carefully through their fleece and at the skin.  There is also the area
of sun-related freckles that Fred mentioned.  
 
If you use an older ram (meaning over 2 years of age at a minimum),
there are quite a few benefits:
 
1.	personality is pretty well set, and that means if he is a
snot---you probably would be much better off passing him by and letting
the current owner eat him.
2.	you can see if there are freckles, early graying traits, horn
problems, or any other number of traits that you might like or dislike
in the ram----remember he is 50% of every lamb that is produced, and
there are lots of flocks out there that think one ram a year is
sufficient.  Of course, I have 5 standing at my place this winter.
3.	you will also be able to see what offspring he has produced and
whether or not you like them.  Remember to ask about the culls and why
they were culled.  Every breeder has a few criteria that might differ
from yours---their cull might be your "find".
 
I personally love getting my hands on an older ram.  I don't have to
wonder if they are going to grow up and try to kill me.  Some of the
breeders I cut my milk teeth on gave me "2 years" as the critical age to
pass before determining personality.  I was told if the ram had behaved
himself through that period of time (2nd fall) that he would be very
unlikely to change.  I have probably lived through 8-10 different rams
that fit the criteria, and believe it wholeheartedly.
 
We sheared on the 20th.  Spring harvest is past.  The old guy was in the
shed with us the whole time and nobody even bothered to look at him.  He
was an adult in 1992 spring pictures, so he was born sometime between
1989 and 1991..still tottering around.  He has 3 cute little offspring
cutting up in the field now---2 girls and a boy.  I have another set of
twins likely before too many days before we have a long dry spell for
lambs.
 
Mary Ellen
 
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From ranchrat at telusplanet.net  Tue Feb 25 02:37:34 2003
From: ranchrat at telusplanet.net (ranchrat@telusplanet.net)
Date: Wed Feb  2 07:53:33 2005
Subject: [Jacob-list] Ranch Rat Introduction
Message-ID: <1046158654.3e5b1d3ea3df7@webmail.telus.net>

Heel low:

Wow
what a delight to find a list concerning Jacob Sheep!! :-) As a courtesy, I 
would like to introduce myself to this list, having just joined your forum.

I am employed as a bean counter (aka accountant), enjoy homesteading activities 
(from tawing hides to growing corn under impossible conditions!), stainglass / 
woodcarving, and am treasurer of the Jacob Sheep Association of Canada.  The 
association has just gotten up and running (incorporated Dec 6, 2002) and 
already we have a whole host of events to show case the Jacob breed at.  Our 
group is motivated and energetic
we are pumped to compete in sheep shows 
(conformation & fleece), proudly display our breed at public venues and educate 
and promote, promote, PROMOTE the Jacob Sheep!

The JSAC membership is in the process of looking to acquire some new genetics 
for our cause up here.  Our members are willing to work with one farm or 
several on a package of animals with the intentions of increasing our bio-
diversity.  Animals may be open, bred, lambs at side, rams, young or older 
proven producers.  We are receptive to suggestions regarding this endeavour and 
would like to work with people who have a vested interest in improving our 
breed as a whole.  Our stock here is registered through the Canadian Sheep 
Breeders? Association with the Canadian Livestock Record Corporation and the 
Jacobs we purchase will need to be registerable with this our only registering 
body in Canada.

The Canadian Sheep Breeders? tell me if you have Jacobs registered other than 
the ?Jacob Livestock Registry,? they will consider other registries IF they 
receive:  1)  Copy of registry?s constitution  and 2) An example of a four 
generation pedigree from the registry.  The Canadian Sheep Breeders? would 
expect assistance from the other registries to help them to accept Jacobs from 
their registry.  Sounds reasonable to me and might be kinda neat to get more 
Jacob registries accepted by CSBA and Canadian Livestock Record Corp.   Sort of 
an historical undertaking for future cross-border genetic transfers
hee hee!

While I cannot speak for the membership on all their wants and needs, I am loud 
and long winded enough to voice my own preferences, eh!  I am looking for the 
following qualities:

- Registered purebreds who will register in Canada (Jacob Livestock Registry so 
far!)
- Animals bred with the objectives of conforming to Jacob Sheep Breed Standards
- Primitive yet sturdy conformation
- All breed markings plus dark knees/hocks ? I admit to finding ?ghost? faces a 
bit unnerving
BOO HOO!  ;-)
- Exceptional inheritable fleeces targeting handspinners and felters
- Level bite; both in the front and on sides
- Horn sets that do not inhibit animal?s ability to graze
- Amiable temperaments
- Age is irrelevant so long as they have ?one? more breeding season left in 
them and they will not succumb to the stresses of transport.  I do not have a 
large flock and will be able to bestow time to special care needs animals if 
required.  Every year that passes informs me more insistently of my own 
mortality.  We will not ?cull? healthy old unproductive sheep who gave their 
best years to us--they get to retire to hot mashes, deep straw and lazy days

sorry if this is not business wise but some of us ?accountant? types really go 
offline when we exit the boardrooms and head for the hills & home!  ;-)

Intrigued by:
- Lilac
- Blue eyes
- Triplets
- Five+ horns without sacrificing Type 1 split eye deformity

Ewe Spot, Lombard, Puddleduck, Conservancy, & New Cumbria are some of the more 
well known genetics in my lines.  Anyone interested in my request, a short 
three generation pedigree would be much appreciated since I am looking for 
genetics not necessarily away from these prefixes, but it would be sickly 
ironic to spend time and resources importing brothers/sisters to my own flock!  
:-(

My registered ewes are four horn with all breed specific markings, black 
knees/hocks/hooves, and dark horns.  Within my flock, I have a lilac ewe (bred 
to produce lilac factor lambs), a lilac factor ewe lamb (open-I do not breed 
ewe lambs till their second year) and a white legged blue eyed dominant black 
ewe.  

I adore lilacs and would like to see more of them produced while retaining the 
genetic diversity we need in this rare breed.  Fleece on our lilacs here 
require improvement; there is some hair mixed in with my lilac?s wool along her 
hindquarters.  I am willing to introduce genetics from dominant black Jacobs 
who pass on improved fleece to their progeny, expecting to see a projected 
improvement in the F4 and F5 generations...I do not expect improvement 
overnight if we are to retain the lilac factor with dominant black infusions.

I have show quality registered guardian fiber llamas and would like to see my 
Jacob fleece quality improved so I may produce mixed yarns from both species 
for clothing articles, etc.  I am quite delighted with the quality of Jacob we 
have up here and feel that we may now focus upon improving the fleece quality 
while adding some more diversity to our gene pool so we do not lose the quality 
we have already attained.

I prefer 4 horn Jacobs with all the appropriate breed markings including black 
knees and hocks.  None of my ewes exhibit split eye deformities.  I am more 
than willing to overlook any of my other stated preferences for something like 
a two horn ewe who has an exceptional soft fleece.  I like balance in an animal 
and realize no creature is perfect, especially myself!

My acquisition of sheep took 11 years to plan and prepare for.  I am in this 
for the long haul and will not be a flighty person who lets items like the cost 
of feed, lamb, or wool prices determine the economics of my flock.  I do not 
expect my sheep to cover ANY costs and they are purely here for both mine and 
their enjoyment in life.  This is my hobby, more infatuation if the truth be 
known.  I hope to one day retire to sheep chores full time, going to town only 
to stock up on supplies and hurry home to my muttering mutton matriarchs!

We have excellent facilities.  Our 4.5 acres is cross fenced into nine separate 
rotational areas and six-foot high double perimeter fenced in 9 and 14 gauge 
page wire fencing, making it impassible to even a newborn lamb.  Our property 
is half treed in mature evergreens, some of the pastures were industrial 
rototilled last fall, ready for seeding this spring.  We have purchased and 
properly stored enough good quality hay, grain and alfalfa to feed our flock 
every single day for the next three years if required.  We hand feed a little 
bit of grain in pans to keep our sheep well socialized and find this makes it 
less stressful on them when we have to do work on them.  Some, like our 
dominant ewe, come right up to us for attention.  Our sheep are locked up in 
their barn every evening at dusk with our llamas on patrol just outside their 
dog proof corralled area.  While we are not wealthy, we do feel that it is our 
duty to provide for our animals in the best means we am able.  It is a 
privilege and a luxury to own animals and therefore up to the humans to provide 
for their every need.

My husband and I built two beautiful barns on 6" pipe skids.  Both were built 
to house building standards and lined in puckboard where our sheep lavishly 
lounge in deep oat straw bedding
my Cheshire c@t smirk beams their 
contentment!  We have proper lambing facilities and the know how to deliver and 
care for the breed's future generations.  Alberta has a health flock program 
and I intend on enrolling my flock and one day attaining the highest level of 
Flock status ?A.?  I rotate dewormers and vaccinations, inspect and trim hooves 
every three months, and shear my animals firstly for their benefit while hoping 
to retain their fleeces for my personal use.  I have more sheep ?vet? supplies 
on hand than most clinics
just in case the unexpected should occur!  

I am an advocate for genetic testing having owned purebred pedigreed dogs all 
my life.  I am use to the strict regiments of showing, breeding, registering, 
medical preventatives, and training purebred stock.  We compete in herding & 
obedience trials, conformation shows, run a recreational dog sled team, and 
perform costumed dog skits for the public?s amusement.  I test my canines for 
hearing (BAER), OFA radiograph hips/elbows and annually CERF eye test.  I 
proudly own the world's first DNA color tested (BB, ee) and AKC parentage typed 
red out of blues Australian Cattle Dog (aka Heeler).  This may help to explain 
why I took an instant like to lilac Jacobs?just more color genetics at work!

I am aware of Johnnes, Caseous, OPP, Scrapie, and the risks one exposes their 
animals to when showing or purchasing outside stock.  I will need to know what 
kind of health regiment my sheep?s previous farm has adopted to limit 
communicatible diseases.  My sheep facilities are set well back from thru 
traffic and I have biosecurity measures in place to help keep disease transfers 
down (quarantine facilities post showing).

Some of the lengths we have gone to to accommodate our animals is unnerving for 
some.  We coat our sheep after shearing to make sure their transition to wool-
lessness is not such a great shock on their systems (Lilac Haley always looks 
like ?toga? girl in her wool-lined canvas coat
maybe her less than balanced 
horn set adds to the overall appearance--looks an awful lot like a grey crown 
of olive branches
too bad Jacobs don?t have Roman noses to complete the entire 
toga-look
hee hee!).  We even planted and deer fenced a new orchard with apple 
trees that will supply us with a bountiful crop of "sheep" apples; tasty treats 
to hand tame and spoil them with.

Our four registered ACDogs are fully contained and only work our animals under 
our direct supervision.  They are taught self control (they work call ducks 
long before they ever work sheep) and do not grip stock.  We care as much about 
our sheep?s wellbeing as our dogs enjoy their herding.

I think the best day in recent memory is when I looked out my kitchen window to 
peek at my ?park? sheep contentedly grazing in one of my forest pastures.  
Easily amused?  Possibly, but I certainly know good things when I see them!

I look forward to public or private responses to my request for new genetics.

Doggone,

Tara Lee Higgins
Treasurer - Jacob Sheep Association of Canada
President - Central Alberta Premium Sheep ? CAPS
Historian & former Secretary ? Australian Cattle Dog Club of Canada
Spokesperson to CKC for Recognition of the Australian Stumpy Tail Cattle Dog
--
   ____(\                Tara Lee Higgins                  /)____
  (_____~>        Rat Ranch - An ACD is for LIFE          <~_____)
 ( ``  ``          ranchrat@telusplanet.net                ``  `` )
  \                       Alberta Canada                         /
   )  http://www.telusplanet.net/public/ranchrat/index.html     (






From hettick.1 at osu.edu  Tue Feb 25 06:10:03 2003
From: hettick.1 at osu.edu (Heather Hettick)
Date: Wed Feb  2 07:53:33 2005
Subject: [Jacob-list] For Sale
Message-ID: <0HAV00EQ333NX4@mail-mta3.service.ohio-state.edu>

I had a baby last year and didn't sell any ewes so this year I have to
make some decisions about who I can keep so my flock stays a manageable
size.  I still have decisions to make based on lambing and shearing
results but these are a few I know I want to find homes for.

All ewes would be available after weaning her lambs so around May for the 
yearling, maybe as early as April for those with lambs already.  I'll
certainly have lambs for sale as well but I want to evaluate them first.
This year's ram is a 4 H lilac with and exceptionally nice personality -
McClain's Maverick with mostly Hatch background.  He'll be two this year
and is not for sale.

PUREBRED JACOBS:

Moonstruck Violet:  4 years old this year, Lilac and White with Blue eyes 
and 4 horns.  Horns are a little weak and somewhat forward, but wool is
nice and has been a good mother.  Born a twin and produced Single ewes
last 2 years and trips this year but lost one.  They were very small and
the ewe that died really needed extra attention but was her least favorite.  
Wool is nice, last year's buyer commented on cleanliness and softness.  I 
can send samples of wool and pictures, including pictures and info on
progeny who are both currently in my flock. I'd like $200 for her as
she's the kind of sheep I really like in my flock but I am keeping her
twin sister and mother and she's already produced lots of ewes for me.  

Moonstruck Princess:  Yearling, triplet, 20% Black, 4 horns, fused -looks 
two horned. Half sister to Violet, mother is lilac. Exceptionally calm
and friendly for a yearling - her brothers were bottle-fed.  My largest
yearling this year. $150.00

Moonstruck Laurel:  Yearling twin, 45% black 4 horns - top horns tip
forward.  Soft wool - may be a little freckled and her mother fades. $100.

Moonstruck Myrtle: Yearling, twin, 55% Black, 4 horns, freckled with soft 
wool. $100.

Moonstruck Isis:  Daughter of Violet above, 2 years old this year. 
Black with blue eyes, produced nice ewe lamb last year. $175.00

JACOB CROSSES OR NON JACOBS:

Tunis:  3 year-old, 1/8 Romney 7/8 Tunis, very large but looks like a
Tunis with nice wool and good mothering skills.  Raised twin ewes last
year. $100

Black Tunis/Jacob:  Yearling, twin, polled, totally black, nice soft long 
wool. $100

Spotted Tunis/Jacob:  Yearling twin, polled, mostly black with some white 
spots including blaze on face.  Her white spots are longer- quilted. $75



This message was sent using the Webmail System hosted by OARDC Computing Services  -- http://webmail.oardc.ohio-state.edu:8080


From patchworkfibers at alltel.net  Tue Feb 25 07:30:35 2003
From: patchworkfibers at alltel.net (Linda)
Date: Wed Feb  2 07:53:33 2005
Subject: [Jacob-list] Ranch Rat Introduction
In-Reply-To: <1046158654.3e5b1d3ea3df7@webmail.telus.net>
Message-ID: <20030225123401.KZMJ17624.mta01-srv.alltel.net@wolfpen>


On Mon, 24 Feb 2003 23:37:34 -0800, ranchrat@telusplanet.net wrote:
>Heel low:
>
>Wow
what a delight to find a list concerning Jacob Sheep!! :-) As a
>courtesy, I would like to introduce myself to this list, having just
>joined your forum.
>
What a perfectly delightful introduction!  I enjoyed reading your post this morning and look forward to reading more about your farming operations on the list!

Linda



>
>I look forward to public or private responses to my request for new
>genetics.
>
>Doggone,
>
>Tara Lee Higgins Treasurer - Jacob Sheep Association of Canada
>President - Central Alberta Premium Sheep ? CAPS Historian &?former
>Secretary ? Australian Cattle Dog Club of Canada Spokesperson to CKC
>for Recognition of the Australian Stumpy Tail Cattle Dog --
>____(\ ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Tara Lee Higgins ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?/)____
>(_____~>? ? ? ? Rat Ranch - An ACD is for LIFE ? ? ? ? ?<~_____) (
>`` ?`` ? ? ? ? ?ranchrat@telusplanet.net ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?`` ?`` ) \
>Alberta Canada ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? / )
>http://www.telusplanet.net/public/ranchrat/index.html ? ? (
>
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________ Jacob-list mailing
>list Jacob-list@jacobsheep.com
>http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list

Visit our Jacob flock at:
http://www.PatchworkFibers.com
Registered Jacob Sheep
Handspun Yarns
 




From patchworkfibers at alltel.net  Tue Feb 25 07:36:44 2003
From: patchworkfibers at alltel.net (Linda)
Date: Wed Feb  2 07:53:33 2005
Subject: [Jacob-list] Ram: Freckles/Ticking
In-Reply-To: <000001c2dc77$346d4330$ee691a42@hanssonrjth5yb>
Message-ID: <20030225124424.MJEG5446.mta02-srv.alltel.net@wolfpen>


On Mon, 24 Feb 2003 21:40:00 -0500, Mary Ellen Hansson wrote:
When are we going to get to see some pictures from these guys? The history of the Twigg flock is really interesting and I know I'm not the only one that would love to see the new babies.

First lamb was born here this week!  I'm still awaiting the birth of his twin sister, but as it's been three days, I guess he's it.  I REALLY was hoping for a ewe lamb from this cross and mentioned this to Viva many times.  He is a lovely ram lamb and very bouncy and healthy, so can't really complain.

Linda


>
>We sheared on the 20th.  Spring harvest is past.  The old guy was in
>the shed with us the whole time and nobody even bothered to look at
>him.  He was an adult in 1992 spring pictures, so he was born
>sometime between 1989 and 1991&.still tottering around.  He has 3
>cute little offspring cutting up in the field now---2 girls and a
>boy.  I have another set of twins likely before too many days before
>we have a long dry spell for lambs.
>
>
>
>Mary Ellen
>
>
>

Visit our Jacob flock at:
http://www.PatchworkFibers.com
Registered Jacob Sheep
Handspun Yarns
 




From hettick.1 at osu.edu  Tue Feb 25 08:07:44 2003
From: hettick.1 at osu.edu (Heather Hettick)
Date: Wed Feb  2 07:53:33 2005
Subject: [Jacob-list] For Sale
In-Reply-To: <0HAV00EQ333NX4@mail-mta3.service.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <NDBBLGKHGLCIANICKAJCOEHNEAAA.hettick.1@osu.edu>

Sorry I forgot contact info:

Heather Hettick
Moonstruck Jacob Sheep
Creston, OH - about and hour south of Cleveland and 2 hours East of Columbus
hettick.1@osu.edu
home email: hettick1@yahoo.com
330-435-6669




From mhansson1 at triad.rr.com  Wed Feb 26 05:32:15 2003
From: mhansson1 at triad.rr.com (Mary Ellen Hansson)
Date: Wed Feb  2 07:53:33 2005
Subject: [Jacob-list] Ram: Freckles/Ticking
In-Reply-To: <20030225124424.MJEG5446.mta02-srv.alltel.net@wolfpen>
Message-ID: <001901c2dd82$5802f130$ee691a42@hanssonrjth5yb>

Linda and all,

Pictures are pretty slow coming when I am working about 50 hours every
week away from the farm, trying to keep up with the farm and a
burgeoning internet business, being choir director at church and other
stuff there, as well as trying to be a mom and wife.....  I am working
on it, but it is slow coming.  I just got the computer back after 2
weeks of it being dead---so I am worse than backed up right now.  I want
to get an area of my site for the current flock and pictures thereof.
When I get that up and running, I will post it.

ISeeSpots Farm www.iseespots.com
Jacob Sheep, Fiber, Spinning equipment,
Books, Patterns, Knitting/Crochet/Tatting




From locohack at sunlink.net  Wed Feb 26 16:36:32 2003
From: locohack at sunlink.net (Connie Hackenburg)
Date: Wed Feb  2 07:53:33 2005
Subject: [Jacob-list] Killer Ram
Message-ID: <003001c2dddf$21f40180$c3232acf@r8q3y4>

Hello All,
 I don't participate much with the list, but am always interested in reading your stories.  
I am writing with this information to see if any of you have ever experienced this terrible event.
 We have Jacob and some crossbred sheep. A samll flock of 10 ewes and a ram. The ram is now probably 6 yrs old and I am always very aware where he is when I am in the field. He has never to this day really been aggressive towards us except when cornered and I consider that acceptable.
 On Sat night after participating with a group of brownies and their thinking day I came home to find one of my crossbred ewes down in their shelter unable to get up. She appeared to have some bloody discharge, so I felt she may be delivering her lambs. After observing for a while and nothing really progressing I began to worry she may have been laboring earlier and was just tired. I proceeded to check her to see if we were having lambing. She was not even dilated a bit and then noticed she was very swollen by her udder. This was all by flashlight.
The ram was being very protective of her and I really didn't think that to be all bad.
We brought her up into the shed where there was light and checked her over.  
 The swelling was not her udder, but the very soft area in the front of the udder and part way up her belly. Could her broad ligament have torn?
  I gave her some vitamin B, Propylene Glycol, and some electrolytes.
She really didn't seem sick, she was just unable to get up. 
 The next day the area that was swollen had turned all purple, an obvious  bad bruise.  
Thinking maybe the ram had maybe done this when she was unable to get up  didn't thrill me, but possibly a survival measure if he felt she were being threatened by the others.  
  Today when I went out to the field to feed the group I noticed the ram had blood on his horns. Allot of blood!!! It was bright red, so I knew it was fresh. As I fed and watched the sheep around me I noticed two lambs with a small amount of blood smeared on their heads. The came across two large puddles of blood!!!! It was like a story from the twilight zone as I kept searching as to where all of it came from. 
  Then, there it was, in the small shelter lay one of my purebred ewes with her udder bruised purple and in a very distressed.
She had been perfectly healthy yesterday with two lambs that are 6 weeks old. 
 I went to get help to get her up and until we got back down  she had died. 
I have removed the ram from the pasture and now put 100% of the blame on him.
Do any of you have any input about this. He is now destin   for dog food unless someone can  give me a good story why not. 
Thanks, Connie
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From mhansson1 at triad.rr.com  Wed Feb 26 16:51:56 2003
From: mhansson1 at triad.rr.com (Mary Ellen Hansson)
Date: Wed Feb  2 07:53:33 2005
Subject: [Jacob-list] Killer Ram
In-Reply-To: <003001c2dddf$21f40180$c3232acf@r8q3y4>
Message-ID: <000a01c2dde1$47e14180$ee691a42@hanssonrjth5yb>

Sounds like a 22 would be as good for him.  This would be one example of
why many breeders will not have a ram in a field with ewes except during
breeding season.  Any ram, though, that gets aggressive with ewes even
during breeding season is earmarked immediately for "the Bosnians"---aka
MEAT.  They are worthless, and I have often seen quite aggressive ram
lambs out of them.
 
ISeeSpots Farm www.iseespots.com
Jacob Sheep, Fiber, Spinning equipment,
Books, Patterns, Knitting/Crochet/Tatting
 
-----Original Message-----
From: jacob-list-admin@jacobsheep.com
[mailto:jacob-list-admin@jacobsheep.com] On Behalf Of Connie Hackenburg
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 4:37 PM
To: jacob list
Subject: [Jacob-list] Killer Ram
 
Hello All,
 I don't participate much with the list, but am always interested in
reading your stories.  
I am writing with this information to see if any of you have ever
experienced this terrible event.
 We have Jacob and some crossbred sheep. A samll flock of 10 ewes and a
ram. The ram is now probably 6 yrs old and I am always very aware where
he is when I am in the field. He has never to this day really been
aggressive towards us except when cornered and I consider that
acceptable.
 On Sat night after participating with a group of brownies and their
thinking day I came home to find one of my crossbred ewes down in their
shelter unable to get up. She appeared to have some bloody discharge, so
I felt she may be delivering her lambs. After observing for a while and
nothing really progressing I began to worry she may have been laboring
earlier and was just tired. I proceeded to check her to see if we were
having lambing. She was not even dilated a bit and then noticed she was
very swollen by her udder. This was all by flashlight.
The ram was being very protective of her and I really didn't think that
to be all bad.
We brought her up into the shed where there was light and checked her
over.  
 The swelling was not her udder, but the very soft area in the front of
the udder and part way up her belly. Could her broad ligament have torn?
  I gave her some vitamin B, Propylene Glycol, and some electrolytes.
She really didn't seem sick, she was just unable to get up. 
 The next day the area that was swollen had turned all purple, an
obvious  bad bruise.  
Thinking maybe the ram had maybe done this when she was unable to get up
didn't thrill me, but possibly a survival measure if he felt she were
being threatened by the others.  
  Today when I went out to the field to feed the group I noticed the ram
had blood on his horns. Allot of blood!!! It was bright red, so I knew
it was fresh. As I fed and watched the sheep around me I noticed two
lambs with a small amount of blood smeared on their heads. The came
across two large puddles of blood!!!! It was like a story from the
twilight zone as I kept searching as to where all of it came from. 
  Then, there it was, in the small shelter lay one of my purebred ewes
with her udder bruised purple and in a very distressed.
She had been perfectly healthy yesterday with two lambs that are 6 weeks
old. 
 I went to get help to get her up and until we got back down  she had
died. 
I have removed the ram from the pasture and now put 100% of the blame on
him.
Do any of you have any input about this. He is now destin   for dog food
unless someone can  give me a good story why not. 
Thanks, Connie
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From spahrfarm at dragonbbs.com  Wed Feb 26 18:39:13 2003
From: spahrfarm at dragonbbs.com (Mary Spahr)
Date: Wed Feb  2 07:53:33 2005
Subject: [Jacob-list] killer ram
Message-ID: <000e01c2ddf0$4604bb80$1b449ed8@n2g2k3>

Connie,

Sorry to hear about your ewe.  I suppose you are having to bottle feed her lambs now?  That does sound like a scene from the Twilight Zone! The evidence points to the ram since he had blood on his horns.  I can think of no reason for a ram to do that unless the ewe challenged him in some way, perhaps trying to protect her lambs, or could they have been fighting over feed?
In the 15 years that we have raised Jacob sheep, I have seen a similar incident only once.  It happened with the first ram we had and one of our original ewes.  It was shearing time and while waiting to be sheared, one of the ewes butted the ram.  He butted her back with such force that he broke her pelvis.  She could not stand and we thought she was finished.  We called the vet who advised giving her aspirin for the pain and standing her up several times a day.  She eventually recovered but always limped thereafter.
You are correct in getting rid of such a ram.  We have had no trouble leaving our flock sires in with the ewes and lambs, other than a few times when they have gotten bred back.  We will not tolerate rams that are aggressive with the ewes or with us.  Our rams, however, are quite aggressive with one another unless ram lambs are penned with older rams.  The real trouble occurs when the rams are evenly matched, just like in the wild.  I hope the next ram you have will not give you such a problem.

Mary Spahr
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From creaganlios at prexar.com  Wed Feb 26 19:13:22 2003
From: creaganlios at prexar.com (Thomas Simmons)
Date: Wed Feb  2 07:53:33 2005
Subject: [Jacob-list] Killer Ram
In-Reply-To: <003001c2dddf$21f40180$c3232acf@r8q3y4>
Message-ID: <MBBBKKNFHJGBLJIAICLBMECFECAA.creaganlios@prexar.com>

Connie,

I had the same thing happen several years ago among my Shetlands, and I
found it to be related to another incident raised on this list last week:
the rams reaction to the ewes hormones at lambing time.  In this particular
incident - my first as a shepherd of Shetlands - a Ram seemed *very*
protective of a ewe who was about to lamb.  he would let no one else near
her, except me - and he was even kind of unsettled about that. I discovered
him butting her hard in the rear as she attempted to lie down. He ended up
beating her up, andshe miscarried.  I learned that this ram could NOT be
near ewes when they were lambing, because his "sensors" thought it was
mating time, and he was quite obnoxious when no one accommodated him.

He didn't even taste good, either.......

Thom
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From shepherdofspots at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 26 19:23:46 2003
From: shepherdofspots at yahoo.com (J Thomas)
Date: Wed Feb  2 07:53:33 2005
Subject: [Jacob-list] Killer Ram
In-Reply-To: <003001c2dddf$21f40180$c3232acf@r8q3y4>
Message-ID: <20030227002346.88191.qmail@web40704.mail.yahoo.com>

Freezer - is my opinion. You don't him to turn on
you!!

Sad, but true!
Joy Thomas


=====
Joy Thomas, Shepherd & Fiber Artist
Son-Rise Farm, Creedmoor NC
Home of The Fleece Flock
Border Leicester, Jacob & Shetland Sheep
French Angora Rabbits
Website:   www.shepherdofspots.com
E-Mail:    joy@shepherdofspots.com

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/


From creeksendfarm at mac.com  Wed Feb 26 20:11:48 2003
From: creeksendfarm at mac.com (Katherine Wisor)
Date: Wed Feb  2 07:53:33 2005
Subject: Fwd: [Jacob-list] Killer Ram
Message-ID: <72352277-49F0-11D7-993F-0003937FEC88@mac.com>

I have to agree with Mary Ellen!  Although I never have moved my ram 
Nicholas from the pasture , he is a large Jacob cross  as is his 2 year 
old son, but together they are very protective of the flock.  Often 
they reach a older lamb in trouble before  the mother notices a 
problem.  I spend a great deal of time in the pasture with them ,he 
loves his ears scratched where he can't reach.  BUT if he ever became 
aggressive , EVER  , that would be his last day here on earth.  I have 
to many babies in the pasture include the baby Llamas, not to mention 
the children that visit.   An aggressive animal  here could  cost me 
everything in a law suit, not to mention the vet bills and suffering to 
the other sheep, goats ,llamas etc....
Sorry you have to deal with this!  Katherine    Creeksendfarm@mac.com  
, Charlotte , NC
Begin forwarded message:

> From: "Mary Ellen Hansson" <mhansson1@triad.rr.com>
> Date: Wed Feb 26, 2003  4:51:56 PM US/Eastern
> To: "'Connie Hackenburg'" <locohack@sunlink.net>, "'jacob list'" 
> <jacob-list@jacobsheep.com>
> Subject: RE: [Jacob-list] Killer Ram
>
> Sounds like a 22 would be as good for him.?This would be one example 
> of why many breeders will not have a ram in a field with ewes except 
> during breeding season. ?Any ram, though, that gets aggressive with 
> ewes even during breeding season is earmarked immediately for ?the 
> Bosnians?---aka MEAT.?They are worthless, and I have often seen quite 
> aggressive ram lambs out of them.
>
> ?
>
> ISeeSpots Farm www.iseespots.com
>
> Jacob Sheep, Fiber, Spinning equipment,
>
> Books, Patterns, Knitting/Crochet/Tatting
>
> ?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: jacob-list-admin@jacobsheep.com 
> [mailto:jacob-list-admin@jacobsheep.com] On Behalf OfConnie Hackenburg
> Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 4:37 PM
> To: jacob list
> Subject: [Jacob-list] Killer Ram
>
> ?
>
> Hello All,
>
> ?I don't participate much with the list, but am always interested in 
> reading your stories.?
>
> I am writing with this information to see if any of you have ever 
> experienced this terrible event.
>
> ?We have Jacob and some crossbred sheep. A samll flock of 10 ewes and 
> a ram. The ram is now probably 6 yrs old and I am always very aware 
> where he is when I am in the field. He has never to this day really 
> been aggressive towards us except when cornered and I consider that 
> acceptable.
>
> ?On Sat night after participating with a group of brownies and their 
> thinking day I came home to find one of my crossbred ewes down 
> in?their shelter unable to get up. She appeared to have some bloody 
> discharge, so I felt she may be delivering her lambs. After observing 
> for a while and nothing really progressing I began to worry she 
> may?have been laboring earlier and was just tired. I proceeded to 
> check her to see if we were having lambing. She was not even dilated a 
> bit?and then noticed she was very swollen?by her udder. This was all 
> by flashlight.
>
> The ram was being very protective of her and I really didn't think 
> that to be all bad.
>
> We brought her up into the shed where there was light and checked her 
> over.?
>
> ?The swelling was not her udder, but the very soft area in the front 
> of the udder and part way up her belly. Could her broad ligament have 
> torn?
>
> ? I gave her some vitamin B, Propylene Glycol, and some electrolytes.
>
> She really didn't seem sick, she was just unable to get up.
>
> ?The next day the area that was swollen had turned all purple, an 
> obvious? bad bruise.?
>
> Thinking maybe the ram had maybe done this when she was unable to get 
> up? didn't thrill me, but possibly a survival measure if he felt she 
> were being threatened by the others.?
>
> ? Today when I went out to the field to feed the group I noticed the 
> ram had blood on his horns. Allot of blood!!! It was bright red, so I 
> knew it was fresh. As I fed and watched the sheep around me I noticed 
> two lambs with a small amount of blood smeared on their heads. The 
> came across two large puddles of blood!!!! It was like a story from 
> the twilight zone as I kept searching as to where all of it came from.
>
> ? Then, there it was, in the small shelter lay one of my purebred ewes 
> with her udder bruised purple and in a very distressed.
>
> She had been perfectly healthy yesterday with two lambs that are 6 
> weeks old.
>
> ?I went to get help to get her up and until we got back down ?she had 
> died.
>
> I have removed the ram from the pasture and now put 100% of the blame 
> on him.
>
> Do any of you have any input about this. He is now destin ??for dog 
> food unless someone can ?give me a good story why not.?
>
> Thanks, Connie
>
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From locohack at sunlink.net  Wed Feb 26 20:26:35 2003
From: locohack at sunlink.net (Connie Hackenburg)
Date: Wed Feb  2 07:53:34 2005
Subject: [Jacob-list] Killer Ram
Message-ID: <006801c2ddff$6321e580$c3232acf@r8q3y4>

To add to this story from my end. We have owned and managed this ram in the same fashion for the past 4 years with no problems. We have no other rams on the place other than the lambs that were just born within the past 6 weeks. Everyone has lambed except the first ewe he beat up and another old girl that's falling behind at lambing this year.
Also, I haven't found any enclosure strong enough to hold a ram that really doesn't want to be penned up. Today after we caught him we masked him thinking he wouldn't be able to bother beating the pen apart and it was amazing to watch as he felt his way to a wall and just started beating on it.
Connie 
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From ranchrat at telusplanet.net  Thu Feb 27 01:22:43 2003
From: ranchrat at telusplanet.net (ranchrat@telusplanet.net)
Date: Wed Feb  2 07:53:34 2005
Subject: [Jacob-list] Thank Ewe!
In-Reply-To: <20030226232401.5129253720@pairlist.net>
References: <20030226232401.5129253720@pairlist.net>
Message-ID: <1046326963.3e5daeb38b6d4@webmail.telus.net>

Heel low:

I would like to thank all those who so kindly replied to my request for new 
Jacob genetics
oh my, what an overwhelming response and the selections to 
choose from
I wonder how the Canadian membership is ever going to decide.  I 
say lets bring ALL these Jacobs on over the border for some good ol? Canadian 
hospitality!  I will have the membership look over all the responses and we 
will try to decide what will be best for the overall breed up here.  

Federal laws here stipulate that sheep imported from the States must be cleared 
of communicatible diseases (a vet is to inspect not only the individuals who 
are being exported, but the entire flock) such as scrapie, scabies and blue 
tongue.  It is ?blue tongue? that is the hurdle right now in the testing 
department.  Blue tongue or Catarrhal fever is a viral disease of sheep and 
sometimes cattle, goats, deer, bison and antelopes.  It is not believed to be 
transferable to humans but may on occasion be lethal to the animals.  The 
pathogenic virus (rcoviridac family) is transmitted to animals though insects 
such as biting midges.  It takes only one week for incubation and symptoms such 
as high fever, excessive salivation, nasal discharge, and swelling of the 
tongue and face occurs in about a month.  Animals go off their feed and this 
may be the first symptom the owners notice.  For the warmer States, the E-LISA 
or AGID test is done twice if the animal is exported from Jan 16 to Oct 15 and 
only needs to be done once if exportation is done from Oct 16 to Jan 15.  
Between the two tests, the sheep is to be protected from biting insects and 
housed 200 yards or so away from all other ruminants.  I believe the test is 
done and then redone 30-90 days later
this is a fair length of time.  I have 
not yet done a test like this, so if someone here has, I would be enjoy knowing 
all it entails and the costs.

There are also tattoo and tag requirements to be met and when the sheep hits 
the border, there must be accompanying paperwork that a vet inspection was done 
within the past 30 days.  The importation of sheep to Canada includes a lot of 
interesting requirements and outlays of cash.  We have to have a Canadian 
federal vet inspect the sheep at their point of entry here and will be paying 
brokerage fees (it makes sense to find out in advance what broker will be 
handling the paperwork and forward that on to the people in the States to have 
them fill it all out except, of course, for the exchange rate).  The one good 
item is that sheep are not Goods&Service taxable (GST) so we are at least 
spared that seven percent fee.

With all the importation protocols, the Jacob Sheep Association of Canada may 
be forced to deal with Jacob individuals who posses thick skin, smiley 
optimistic attitudes and a vision of the great good that exporting Jacob 
genetics to Canada will do for the breed as a whole.  ;-)  I expect a few 
surprises, some hair (never wool!) pulling and a few good hearted gut felt 
laughs at the obstacle course cross border relations have to endure.  But hay, 
if we?re half as tough as our sheep, we got them all beat or is that bleat??

Please bear with me as I will try my very best to get back to all who posted me 
in regards to our call for genetics.  Wow what gorgeous Jacobs you Americans 
all have
right on!  I almost feel a twinge of guilt being able to go ?shopping? 
amongst such quality!  Hee, hee
you guys rock!

Doggone,

Tara 
-- 
   ____(\                Tara Lee Higgins                  /)____ 
  (_____~>        Rat Ranch - An ACD is for LIFE          <~_____) 
 ( ``  ``          ranchrat@telusplanet.net                ``  `` ) 
  \                       Alberta Canada                         / 
   )  http://www.telusplanet.net/public/ranchrat/index.html     ( 




From mhansson1 at triad.rr.com  Thu Feb 27 05:52:49 2003
From: mhansson1 at triad.rr.com (Mary Ellen Hansson)
Date: Wed Feb  2 07:53:34 2005
Subject: [Jacob-list] Killer Ram
In-Reply-To: <72352277-49F0-11D7-993F-0003937FEC88@mac.com>
Message-ID: <001501c2de4e$616a3180$ee691a42@hanssonrjth5yb>

Hi,
 
One point that nobody mentioned in this discourse.... Just how many rams
and bucks do you see with ewe and doe herds in the wild outside of
breeding season?  Aren't we making our animals something that nature did
not intend when we house and keep them together year round?  Just a
thought.  
 
We had a ram that was tolerable as a ram---good with the girls,
aggressive with the boys (top ram), but otherwise "safe" as rams tend to
go.  He got in one of those big head-banging fights with a Shetland ram
one spring and then really seemed to get much more aggressive with the
rams.  Behavior change following injury or other CAN happen.  He crossed
the line at my place.  He was butchered and his head sits in my dining
room----gorgeous skull!  Peter actually looked at his head, as at the
time we figured there was probably a broken skull or other injury that
caused the behavior change.  Peter found nothing with that one.
 
ISeeSpots Farm www.iseespots.com
Jacob Sheep, Fiber, Spinning equipment,
Books, Patterns, Knitting/Crochet/Tatting
 
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From Hobsickle at aol.com  Thu Feb 27 06:12:08 2003
From: Hobsickle at aol.com (Hobsickle@aol.com)
Date: Wed Feb  2 07:53:34 2005
Subject: [Jacob-list] Killer Ram
Message-ID: <179.16a4206a.2b8f4c88@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/27/03 5:54:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
mhansson1@triad.rr.com writes:

> One point that nobody mentioned in this discourse???. Just how many rams 
> and bucks do you see with ewe and doe herds in the wild outside of breeding 
> season?  Honestly, how many of us actually see rams or does in the wild 
> period?  (Some of you out West may be able to say yes, but most of us don't 
> have that pleasure.)  And as they don't have antlers outside of the 
> breeding season, how many of us personally observe whether the buck are or 
> aren't with the does?  Aren?t we making our animals something that nature 
> did not intend when we house and keep them together year round?  What 
> exactly did nature intend, anyway?  Aren't we doing something that nature 
> did not intend when we house them at all?  Just a thought.  
> 
>  
> 
> 


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From nlgrose at yadtel.net  Thu Feb 27 06:45:49 2003
From: nlgrose at yadtel.net (Neal and Loise Grose)
Date: Wed Feb  2 07:53:34 2005
Subject: [Jacob-list] Killer Ram
References: <179.16a4206a.2b8f4c88@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000901c2de55$c672e480$0207a8c0@COMPUTER>

I do see bucks in the wild quite a bit, [so much so that we occasionally have to get permits to spot and kill them in our fields to prevent extensive crop damage.] My observation is that bucks and the rams here willingly form bachelor groups and separate themselves from the ewe herds during lambing. [This is seems to be the traditional model for humans as well.] I have often left the rams in with the ewes during the off season. We occasionally have a young ram that gets the wrong idea, but the senior dude straightens them out rather quickly. All of this works best when the ram group stays stabile. Animals coming into the group can really upset the apple cart.

This does NOT mean that I favor letting a mean animal stay around. Rams are, or SHOULD be cheap and plentiful. I know of beef bulls that switch personalities after 3 years of age and kill cows that are trying to freshen. I also know about a Highland bull that would consistently guard a perimeter 20 yards out, always facing out, when a cow was calving.

Neal Grose
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Hobsickle@aol.com 
  To: jacob-list@jacobsheep.com 
  Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 6:12 AM
  Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Killer Ram


  In a message dated 2/27/03 5:54:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, mhansson1@triad.rr.com writes:


    One point that nobody mentioned in this discourse???. Just how many rams and bucks do you see with ewe and doe herds in the wild outside of breeding season?  Honestly, how many of us actually see rams or does in the wild period?  (Some of you out West may be able to say yes, but most of us don't have that pleasure.)  And as they don't have antlers outside of the breeding season, how many of us personally observe whether the buck are or aren't with the does?  Aren?t we making our animals something that nature did not intend when we house and keep them together year round?  What exactly did nature intend, anyway?  Aren't we doing something that nature did not intend when we house them at all?  Just a thought.  








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