[AGL] Thorne Dreyer

[Michael Eisenstadt]

Well I never.

There i am in the RagBlog.

Thanks Thorne for editing me in.

You wrote "despite him being a fanatical Zionist, I vote in
favor of not unsubscribing Mike Eisenstadt from Ragstaff."

I paraphrase from memory. Perhaps you stuck the
phrase in to molify the others. I was glad that you were
standing up for my continuing subscription. Since I am
not a fanatical Zionist, not even exactly a Zionist, i was
offended by the gratuitous slur.

we have never had a conversation on any substantive
topic in recent days nor in the past. if i am wrong,
remind me of the topic.



----- Original Message -----
From: "thorne dreyer" <thornedreyer at yahoo.com>
To: "survivors' reminiscences about Austin Ghetto Daze in the 60s"
<austin-ghetto-list at pairlist.net>
Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 9:26 AM
Subject: Re: [AGL] Thorne Dreyer


Michael,

I have never called you a "fanatical Zionist" nor do I think of you as such.
I do not believe that Israel is a "criminal enterprise" or a "pariah
country" that lacks a right to exist. I do oppose many of the actions of the
Israeli government in the Middle East.

That's a big difference, Mike.

We have had several cordial converstations at events and parties. Thanks for
complimenting my shirt.

Thorne


Below are comments by Michael Eisenstadt published in The Rag Blog:


The Rag Blog / March 29, 2008
Last updated, April 5, 2008



>From Michael Eisenstadt --


Mishal Al-Johar writes:

The events of 1948 and the Palestinian refugees are totally overlooked. This
is the major problem with the proposed peace plan.

Peace is not going to happen if the refugee problem is not solved,period!
Israel's relationship with the Palestinian refugees is THE root of the
conflict. And not just the 4 million refugees in the ghettos of Jordan,
Lebanon, Syria, but the refugees in camps in Gaza and the West Bank. Let me
remind you that 80% of the population in Gaza arerefugees! Where did they
flee from? Why do they call themselves Palestinian? Not because they are
from Gaza but because they are from lands that became Israel in 1948. Do you
seriously think $50 billion in development aid is going to end this
conflict?! This is essentially what you are proposing. The refugees must be
offered the right to return to Israel AND monetary reparations for the
original crime of expulsion. Otherwise they will continue to feel oppressed
by the state of Israel. Human rights cannot be negotiated. And yes, the
right of a refugee to return is as basic a human right as free speech and
freedom of
 religion, especially when people have been expelled because of their
ethnicity, because of their religion.

Eisenstadt:

Mishal Al-Johar is overlooking something. Yes, Israel expelled and
appropriated the property of ~750,000 Palestinians in the course of their
"War of Independence." The Israelis were fighting for survival against the
Arab armies (not the Palestinian army for they had none) which were
attempting to extirpate the Zionist pre-1948 enterprise. Ben Gurion gave the
explicit order to the Israeli army to maximize the number of refugees in the
course of fighting because not to would have been to not take advantage of a
once in a lifetime opportunity. When such a crime is doneby a government it
is exculpated as "raison d'etat."

The Palestinians lost their land in a passage of arms in war. Israelis will
NEVER NEVER NEVER accept the right of return for it would be to overturn the
present regime's demographic reality. That is for Israel non-negotiable.

As for the crime of expulsion, I would remind Mishal that all regimes are
founded on a crime (Montesquie), every political entity in the whole world
is based on the dispossession of the previous inhabitants of that place. The
Israeli's "crime" is to have done it only 60 years ago. If it is a crime for
Israel, it is a crime foreveryone else. If you are a U.S. citizen and
believe that this is so, I advise you to deed over your property if you have
any to the nearest American Indian so as to live up to your principles.

Like the Germans expelled from Eastern Europe after Germany lost the war in
1945 (1 million of them plus died in the course of this operation), like the
Croatians expelled from Yugoslavia more recently, and all the others, the
Palestinians may if they wish forget their loss and get on with their lives.
Or they may undertake another passage of arms (already tried by Nasser).

Michael Eisenstadt




The Rag Blog
21 March 2008

Israel enjoys democratic government: every faction of the population is
represented in the Knesset. The Israel government like few others represents
the desires of the Israelis.

Mike Eisenstadt


And the following from The Rag Blog by Jamie Josephs. (Fanatical
anti-Zionism?)

There is a lot of generalizing going on here about Zionism, what it is, what
it means and who believes in it.

I am Jewish. I believe in the existence and promotion of Israel as the
homeland for the Jewish people. I have been there twice and as most who have
been there agree, since Israel became a state, this thin slice of
undeveloped desert wasteland, in the hands of the Zionist Jews, has been
turned into an amazingly rich and productive oasis in the desert. I’m sure
most of you know that it was the British, through the British Mandate of
1920, who gave a section of what is now Israel the name of Palestine. The
land we now call Israel came to be after it’s own War of Independence of
1948.

With the help of Jews around the world Israel has built the Hadassah
Hospitals which accept ALL patients of ALL religions and national origins. I
have been there and have met Arab patients, extremely rich and ultra poor,
whose lives have been saved at these hospitals often without having to pay
anything. A great majority of the medical miracles that happen in the world
today are attributable to Israeli research.

Same with computer technology, satellite technology and cell phone
technology. The Israelis have built universities and trade schools which
have educated and trained thousands of immigrants who other countries would
not accept. The people of Israel have created so many miracles in a land
which used to be desert occupied by a very poor people who could not or
would not make any progress on their own. None of the Arab countries have
ever been willing to take in their Arab brethren or help them financially.
What’s up with that?????

Most of the Jewish people I know, and that’s saying a LOT, have no desire to
move their lives to Israel. Most Jews I know who care about Israel
financially and ideologically support it.


Maybe half of these Jewish people would consider themselves Zionist-minded,
but do not want to live their lives there. Its a challenging life there for
Jewish and non-Jewish Israelis alike, living in a constant war zone, and not
knowing if the bus one takes will be blown up on the way home. This is
reality for all who live in this area of the Middle East.

I am quite optimistic in general but sincerely believe that the conflict
between Israel and its neighbors will never end. There are way too many in
the region who live to see the day that all Jews are destroyed.

I do not deny that many Palestinian people are suffering, are lacking
freedoms and rights, can’t get to the doctor or to their jobs due to
roadblocks which must exist due to the high incidence of Arab terrorism. I
believe it’s an unsolvable quandary because the Arab folks who really have
the power really do want to rid Israel and the world of the Jews. I believe
that although the Israeli folks who really have the power have not made
Palestinians’ rights their first priority, that they have a tough nut to
crack daily trying to protect their people and keeping Jewish Israel from
being destroyed.

I’ve gone on way too long but needed to give another perspective. I am no
good at debate and shy away from argument and conflict. I am just a
Zionist-minded Jew who wants everyone in the world to live in peace. Toward
this end I toil. Peace to you all and to all people.





----- Original Message ----
From: Michael Eisenstadt <mike.eisenstadt at gmail.com>
To: austin-ghetto-list at pairlist.net
Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 8:47:32 AM
Subject: [AGL] Thorne Dreyer

Thorne Dreyer,

I have a good memory and it tells me that I have never
had a conversation with you past saying hello in my
hole life. No exaggeration.

You edit the RagBlog web site. It is sectarian in
the sense that everything you put in it reflects
your bias. You are biased against the position
that Israeli joos are a nation like all the other
nations. In your view they are a pariah country.
They alone of all nations are collectively a
criminal enterprise, a kind of a political RICO.

You have identified me as a fanatical Zionist
springing to my defense after Alan Pogue
the photographer called for my ouster from the
Ragstaff maillist for sticking up for the juze.
They had just thrown out some nutcase who
had been a 60's SDSer but Pogue felt that I
should be thrown out to balance the nutcase's
ouster. Pogue like Vanessa Redgrave has
danced with Palestinians and has studied
the writings of Theodore Herzl where the plot
was first hatched.

Israel is a shibboleth for many lefties. If i
am to be subscribed to a lefty maillist, when
I read lies that I can show are lies, I would
be ashamed not to write in and point them
out.

As far as the Ragblog is concerned, i dont
exist for I have never been edited into the
Ragblog Web site which you administer.

Why then should I read your promotions for
it on AGL?

And what conversation did we ever have
and on what topic and when? You are just a guy in
a nice shirt whom I see at parties and with
whom I have never spoken, neither recently
since you moved back to Austin nor back in
the Chuck Wagon so far as I can recall.

Partial list of people I have recently talked to:
Judy Brown
Doug Brown
JFLN
Fontaine
Connie
Roger Baker
Bob Simmons
Bob Vennell
Karen
Marian Wizard
Fred Seebolt
Veronica Allbright ?