[AGL] Re: [FedUp] A bit more action-reaction kneejerkedness...

Sat Mar 18 22:57:56 EST 2006

  alright already! This is clearly a VENUS/MARS conundrum...
  FM

Gerry <mesmo at gilanet.com> wrote:
        In response to Gerry's pontificating: But why waste my time, I wonder?

  You ought to spend your time doing some growing instead of reading magazines and gallivanting around town. Only things you've grown in the past ten years are wrinkles and hardened arteries in your brain.

    A blind taste test is the only way such a broadside could be measured.

  You don't need a blind test to tell the difference between the good and the ugly. Nor do you a need dumb test which should be good news to you.

    Another baseless statistic off the top of the head. Where's the evidence?

  Most recent evidence I read was lab tests conducted by students at the U of Wisconsin I believe it was. Frances, I've been growing organic gardens for thirteen consecutive years now. I don't get it from the mags. I subscribe to various on and off line organic food periodicals and blogs, I serve the local health food coop as a grower and a consultant, and I've been organic since the early '70's when I lived and gardened in Northern California. More coming off the top of my head than I can count, but no bullshit when it comes to food.

    That is really off the wall--insects eat according to however big their population has grown--think hoards of locusts who eat every available chloroblast. Insects have yet to be tested for for their ability to discern plant's age-determined palatability. The law of the jungle usually applies to animals, Gerry. It's fire that kills trees, trees try to overpower one another and vines that try to kill trees, kinda like a scissors, paper, rock. Of course, the activities of humans kill 'em all, environmental considerations be damned--think Easter Islanders. 

  What? FYI each insect has a family or families of plants that they live with and off, it's part of the grand plan which gives balance to nature. Hey, Girl! I LIVE IN THE JUNGLE! You telling ME about the jungle? It ain't the same as getting your info from Martha Stewart. You don't find squash beetles eating the corn, nor corn pests on the squash, etc. The timing of the hatching of the insect coincides with its specialty. Even grasshoppers usually (nothing is always in nature) don't come to threatening size until most of the harvest is done. Yes, hungry humans can devour a landscape faster than cutworms, look at Haiti, or what used to be the tall grass prairie of Texas before the cotton farmers arrived.

    My gramma and me as a toddler in our matching bonnets used to pluck insects off our carefully tended plants at dawn when they are most likely to be chomping away. Caterpillars go into hiding at full daylight when birds can see them, or the sun's too hot. We had a garden the size of a city lot and watered by flood irriga tion from the faucet at the high end of the plot. Gramma would carefully hoe channels to each of the planted rows. The system worked quite well, even easier than watering by hand held hose, and the water from our well didn't cost us anything.

  I'm glad Grandma had you wear a bonnet, too bad you took it off in the hot sun when she wasn't looking. While it is true that in most climes the caterpillars are active when the light is low, you will notice that they are all well camouflaged. You can stare at a half eaten plant for several minutes sometimes and not spot a green worm that is 6 inches long munching away. In the desert it gets too cold at night for the caterpillars to do much damage. Flood irrigation is very common here, the acequias cycle the river water. It is the least desirable way to irrigate since repeated use brings up salts and deposits them on the surface ultimately ruining the fields. You have to cycle two to five years of irrigation with five to ten years of allowing the land to lie fallow or you will fuck it up royally. That's why most of us use drip and soak hose methods.

      Dream on, Gerry. You know better than that. Huelga, Now!

  The skilled guys get at least $1,000 per month plus room and some board. A good trailer is fine with most of them. They commonly have a job waiting each year.

  Hmmm. Here we go predicting that which can only be determined by taste test. Who do you know who conducts blind taste tests?

  If you will examine the sentence in detail you will note that what I say is that in a field of squash, the small ones taste the same as the big ones. No science necessary.  When they grow on the same vine they taste the same, country girl. And I can assure you that there are those among us who can discern the slightest variation in the taste of vegetables and fruit, same ability as wine addicts, cheese freaks, etc. Never knew a good farmer who couldn't tell you an awful lot about a veggie by tasting it. 

  G

    ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Frances Morey 
  To: survivors' reminiscences about Austin Ghetto Daze in the 60s 
  Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 3:09 PM
  Subject: Re: [AGL] Re: [FedUp] A bit more action-reaction kneejerkedness...

  In response to Gerry's pontificating: But why waste my time, I wonder?

  Have you lost your taste buds, girl?

  A blind taste test is the only way such a broadside could be measured.

  ... 35 to 40% more nutrition...

  Another baseless statistic off the top of the head. Where's the evidence?

  ...in a typical row of say 50 plants, the insects will only eat those which are the runts of the litter..

  That is really off the wall--insects eat according to however big their population has grown--think hoards of locusts who eat every available chloroblast. Insects have yet to be tested for for their ability to discern plant's age-determined palatability. The law of the jungle usually applies to animals, Gerry. It's fire that kills trees, trees try to overpower one another and vines that try to kill trees, kinda like a scissors, paper, rock. Of course, the activities of humans kill 'em all, environmental considerations be damned--think Easter Islanders. 

  ... big green cutworms who eat the whole plant before it makes fruit. These must be removed by hand (wear a glove). Kids like this activity and generally do a good job since the plants are at eye level to them...

  My gramma and me as a toddler in our matching bonnets used to pluck insects off our carefully tended plants at dawn when they are most likely to be chomping away. Caterpillars go into hiding at full daylight when birds can see them, or the sun's too hot. We had a garden the size of a city lot and watered by flood irriga tion from the faucet at the high end of the plot. Gramma would carefully hoe channels to each of the planted rows. The system worked quite well, even easier than watering by hand held hose, and the water from our well didn't cost us anything.

  ... Most likely any bites on the surface of the fruit are from birds...

  Yikes, with avian flu in the wings, so to speak, this could be deadly!

  ...Hopefully some of the exorbitant price you pay goes to trabajeros from Mexico...

  Dream on, Gerry. You know better than that. Huelga, Now!

  ...ones which are not cosmetically acceptable for the WF shelves (taste the same)....

Hmmm. Here we go predicting that which can only be determined by taste test. Who do you know who conducts blind taste tests?   

  Good grief, I apparently do what Gerry does--disagree with each and every assertion, regardless of right or wong headed.  It must be as catching as avian flu.

  Susi, 
  I feel sorry for Eugene. Has Walmart landed there yet?
  Frances

Wayne Johnson <cadaobh at shentel.net> wrote:
          Jeez, even when Gerry has some good ideas about things, he still manages to be a complete ass-hole!  I guess being a rude, disrespectful, smug and only partially informed Jerk has become a permanent way of life for him.  How sad.

  wgJ
    ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: susan 
  To: survivors' reminiscences about Austin Ghetto Daze in the 60s 
  Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 2:37 PM
  Subject: Re: [AGL] Re: [FedUp] A couple of items for the grocery discussion...

whole foods is coming to eugene, however they had a contingency clause that said the city would fund a parking garage to be built by their contractor, or no deal,  eugene has plenty of upscale organic grocery stores, though nothing on the order of whole foods.  after lots of public dismay, the city council okayed the deal, so long to the small guys who've been here for years providing organic produce and herbal/alternative health items as a choice to safeway/albertsons type stores. i'm sure the store will look good from the new federal courthouse being built across the stre et. way to go eugene.
susi

on 3/18/06 12:38 PM, Gerry at mesmo at gilanet.com wrote:

  The wealth in America is staggering, unprecidented in human history.

And so is the debt...The new budget bill, courtesy of the conservatives in the white house, adds $30K for every man, woman, and child. Need an economic boom? Increase the credit card limits by 50% and watch the dow rise. 

After all a tomato is a tomato is a tomato. What is the opposite of organic anyway, inorganic? 
Pesticides can be washed off. Who would find it more desirable to share the food supply with insects than wash their produce with soap and water? Often shoppers will turn up their noses at any evidence of insect bites which are inevitable without some form of an insecticide shield.

Frances, when you go out on a limb like this I for one wonder if you really know anything about food or not. The chemically grown, thick-skin ned, pulpy crap that passes for a tomato at the local super market compared to a real heirloom fruit grown in mineral rich soil is like night and day. Lab studies reveal that organic means about 35 to 40% more nutrition. Have you lost your taste buds, girl? The opposite of organic is chemical. Sharing the food supply with insects is the natural and inescapable way. But in a typical row of say 50 plants, the insects will only eat those which are the runts of the litter. The biggest, healthiest plants ward them off. The real enemy of tomato plants is the big green cutworms who eat the whole plant before it makes fruit. These must be removed by hand (wear a glove). Kids like this activity and generally do a good job since the plants are at eye level to them. Most likely any bites on the surface of the fruit are from birds. Even the tomatoes at the
 health food outlets in winter are quite pulpy and often thick-skinned. Hydrophonically grown fruit is to me tasteless and weird. 

As we speak I am starting tomato plants inside, about 7 varieties this year. They won't go into the ground until after the frost threat (mid May). The rows they will occupy are currently sporting a crop of winter wheat which will be plowed under in a few weeks, adding to the micro-organism base below which is fed by layers of cow manure, straw, and leaves which have been down there cooking since mid January, kept damp by buried soak hose. Lots of worms already on the scene. 

The tomato plants will be transplanted in a double handful of fresh compost, then topped by a cage of hogwire. Around the cages I will string an agricultural fabric (agribon) which covers the cage and creates an environment which keeps out the bugs and some of the UV rays as well as the wind, completely covered. Also helps keep them warm at night, a big plus in the desert. The result is soft-skinned fruits which knock your socks off at the fi rst bite. The surplus is cut into thin strips and dried in a dehydrator for use in winter. The thinner the strip the less electricity it takes to dry. You can also dry them in the sun, laid out on a flat surface covered with agribon to keep the flies off. The machine is quicker and produces more uniform results. Most of last year's crop is now gone, consumed in soups or added to essene bread dough. Long live tomatoes! 

You can find cooperatives on the internet which will sell you packaged and dried organic produce at a decent price. Organize some friends and buy it bulk. As for the fresh stuff, court a neighbor with a garden, or, heaven forbid, learn to grow it yourself. Lots of little old ladies in my community who thrive on and with their gardens. Even the patio style of gardening beats paying an arm and a leg for inferior food at the markets.

In defense of Whole Foods, it does take more care and thus hands on labor to grow good veggies. Hopefully some of the exorbitant price you pay goes to trabajeros from Mexico who do the work that puts the food on our tables. A friend of mine signed a contract with WF recently to grow winter squash for them this year. He gets $.60 a pound. It will sell for over $2.00  a pound eventually. But WF sends trucks down here to pick it up and haul it ABQ/Santa Fe, something he cannot do. I will pick around his field and score some good fruits--or wait and take the ones which are not cosmetically acceptable for the WF shelves (taste the same).
G

  ----- Original Message ----- 
From: Frances Morey <mailto:frances_morey at yahoo.com>  
To: Jane Walker <mailto:mejane52 at yahoo.com>  
Cc: Austin List <mailto:austin-ghetto-list at pairlist.net>  
Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 9:20 AM
Subject: [AGL] Re: [FedUp] A couple of items for the grocery discussion...
Hi, Jane,
I can credit you with the early-on info on Whole Foods...
Write once in a while.
Best,
Frances

Frances Morey <frances_morey at yahoo.com> wrote:
  One early-on employee told me that first-time-shoppers at WF would cruise the lanes and fill up their baskets as usual only to find that the total after check-out was as much as double what they were used to paying. On many occasions, she told me, such shoppers would turn away and leave their full grocery basket behind without paying, stunned from market shock.

Whole Foods is more about conspicous consumption than anthing else. 
The wealth in America is staggering, unprecidented in human history. Any venue for showing it off is embraced, even grocery shopping. I go to WF as I would to a restaurant and think of it as the biggest deli on earth. I'm glad to know that WF pays well, which not always reflects in employee attention to customers. I discontinued using Celes tial Seasoning tea when I saw a mention in a business zine that bragged about their paying minimum wage.

Thanks for turning us on to the Johnson Farm on Holly St. I saw it and thought it was some kind of community garden. I paid $4.50 last Wednesday for their smallest brownie and two little turnips at Boggy Creek Farm, paying for the the chance to see their chickens, old timey garden and hob nobbing more than for the food. The boquet of snapdragons cost as much as a similar sized boquet of roses at HEB. 

I preferred Trader Toms (or something like that) when I was in San Francisco. It was kinda like a chain of Wheatsville Co-ops with even more reasonable pricing. Before Alamo Drafthouse South captured the old Fiesta, nee City Market, location on S. Lamar I envisioned a Tom's as a kick ass competitor to both WF, Central Market and Wheatsville. Ah, no luck. They only operate on the West Coast and up East.

Frances Morey

Sherry Coldsmith <sherry at coldchrist.org> wrote:
  The first link is to an article that rags on Whole Foods.  The second 
link may be of interest to Austinites who really do want to buy 
locally.  I get my veg from Johnson's and the quality if superb.   Tho 
you have some control over what they bring you in the weekly or 
bi-weekly box, you'll also get some exotics, like kohlrabi, which will 
require you to sharpen your culinary skills and look up a few recipes. 

Sherry

http://www.slate.com/id/2138176/

http://www.localharvest.org/farms/M12509

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