whatever passes for god reaches us in surprisingly diverse ways...
Wayne Johnson
austin-ghetto-list@pairlist.net
Wed Mar 31 00:40:08 2004
Well, Church Latin certainly had a "mystique" about it.
On the other hand, so does Swedish if you don't understand the language.
That was my earliest church exposure, the Swedish Methodists. I will say
one thing, they had *incredible* banquets and Christmas programs. These
ladies could *cook*. Oh my oh my could they cook! Swedish and Hungarian
cooking was the best in CenTex at that time. The ladies in my step Dad's
family were also culinary wizards. So.....churchs are about eating, right!
I couldn't understand a word of the sermons. Which was sort of the idea.
wj
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frances Morey" <frances_morey@excite.com>
To: <austin-ghetto-list@pairlist.net>
Cc: <sterzing@juno.com>; <mikewest@trip.net>; <sharonmajors@austin.rr.com>
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2004 2:12 PM
Subject: Re: whatever passes for god reaches us in surprisingly diverse
ways...
>
> Wayne,
> I agree with you that the proprietors of the church store can be extremely
off putting. I recall the funeral service for Michael Eakin in Waco, it
might have in 1978. The stage business of the Baptist preacher was to remove
his wrist watch and elaborately place it up on the lectern to time his
delivery. He said nothing for much too long, having no knowledge of the
deceased to draw upon, except that he had died as a young man getting shot
in a bad area of Houston. I remember that it included nothing nice or
uplifting about Michael, in five hundred inconsequential words or more, and
I was glad that I hadn't been raised Baptist. Church is supposed to be an
artful, pleasant, non-threatening sanctuary with insense, music and
uplifting homilys. It is for celebrating the seasons or holding funerals and
other occasions. Otherwise it is a weekly pause in life for being respectful
and quietly contemplative in a group milieu. The thought police ruined it
railing about sin and evil. I s!
> uppose it makes for great theater, wailing around and promising hellfire
and doom, but it is right down there on the level with wrestling. I also
regret that they pulled the plug on the Latin.
> Frances
>
>
>
>
>
> --- On Mon 03/29, Wayne Johnson cadaobh@shentel.net wrote:
> From: Wayne Johnson [mailto: cadaobh@shentel.net]
> To: austin-ghetto-list@pairlist.net
> Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 08:04:26 -0500
> Subject: Re: surprise! god is in each of us...
>
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> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>My problem is that most of my early Church
> experience was filled with horrid white anglo saxon protestant hypocricy
and
> utter dismissal of other religions whilst insisting that Jesus should be
the
> half back on your football team. This drivel would stun a ground hog for
> its imbecility but seemed to go over big in Georgetown in the Fifties. The
> single person of deep religious faith that I knew personally and respected
was
> Rev. Heinsohn of the University Methodist Church on the Drag. I worked
there as
> a night-time custodian whilst a student at UT. He was a gentleman, a true
> Biblical scholar and his sermons were absent of cliche or dumb harangues.
> By any measure, a great person and a credit to our species.</FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>wj</FONT></DIV>
> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT:
5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color:
black"><B>From:</B>
> <A title="frances_morey@yahoo.com"
href="mailto:frances_morey@yahoo.com">Frances
> Morey</A> </DIV>
> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title="austin-ghetto-list@pairlist.net"
href="mailto:austin-ghetto-list@pairlist.net">austin-ghetto-list@pairlist.ne
t</A>
> </DIV>
> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, March 28, 2004 7:54
> PM</DIV>
> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: surprise! god is in
each of
> us...</DIV>
> <DIV><BR></DIV>
> <DIV>Wayne,</DIV>
> <DIV>These incidences of kindness are multiplied thousands of times as
church
> members all over are moved to help their fellow humans. I've seen it in
action
> and even experienced some of it myself in my darkest moments. The church
is
> the Other place, away from home and the husstle 'n' bustle of the
> marketplace, where people can be quite and contemplative in humility,
> surrounded by peace and quiet or ethereal music, and participating
> in the familiar and predictable process of the liturgy, if a Mass, or
> listening to preachments alternating with the singing of hymns, if
> they happen to be protestant. I always prefered the Catholic practice of
> keeping the whole service to an hour, homily and all. That is merely
> the excuse for being together, though. Perhaps god is really the human
> matrix in which we immerse ourselves and the churches are places we are
able
> to find other humans who are capable and willing to express good
> will--I believe that is so, anyway. My church experiences have
> been as described and if not I certainly let them
> hear about it. But that's another story.</DIV>
> <DIV>Frances <BR><BR><B><I>Wayne Johnson
> <cadaobh@shentel.net></I></B> wrote:</DIV>
> <BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px;
BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">I
> just found out yesterday that a very dear friend of our in Reston
> has<BR>contract ALS and it has already progessed to the point where he
can
> barely<BR>brush his teeth and can't clothe himself. He and his wife
had
> joined a<BR>local Unitarian church a couple of years ago and these
good
> people have<BR>taken it upon themselves to provide a world of
kindness,
> gentleness, love<BR>and direct physical and emotional assistance to
him and
> his wife. This<BR>includes visits, shopping trips with and without
him, food
> deliveries and<BR>compansionship.<BR><BR>To my old timey way of
thinking,
> this is what "churches" used to do: love<BR>people and be supportive
of
> those in need. Every so often it is good (for me<BR>in particular) to
be
> reminded that there are those who actually practice<BR>what their
religion
> suggests is "Christian" behavior. Of course, the<BR>Unitarians aren't
> exactly boil! er-plate, orthodox, Holey-Rollers. I believe<BR>Ben
Franklin
> was a Unitarian and possibly G. Washington as well. Not<BR>exactly
Bible
> thumpers. Many of these congregations accept neo-pagan<BR>beliefs
without
> rancor. (Oddly, the only other church I have found with<BR>similar
> sentiments was a (Scottish) Episcopal church in Campbell,
CA.<BR>Campbell
> being vurrry Scottish as a person and a clan.<BR><BR>Anyway. Have to
say
> sometimes the sysems works and works to the benefit of<BR>some who
really,
> really deserve it.<BR><BR>wj<BR>----- Original Message ----- <BR>From:
"Pepi
> Plowman" <PEPSTOIL@YAHOO.COM><BR>To:
> <AUSTIN-GHETTO-LIST@PAIRLIST.NET><BR>Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004
9:45
> PM<BR>Subject: RE: let's not do nuance<BR><BR><BR> Wayne, Judy,
> Tele,<BR><BR> I'm with you all the way on the first part. God,
> what<BR> God? Which God? But allow me to elaborate further,<BR>
> below...<BR> --- telebob <TELEBOB@SBCGLOBAL.NET>wrote:<BR>
> Wayne-<BR> <BR> ! ; I think as you do, and thank you for
> reminding us<BR> that most priests and<BR> factotems are
> basically criminals who spread<BR> cultural myths<BR><BR>
> totally. Myths that preceded that particular religion<BR> which the
> priests and factotems accepted as truth and<BR> preached, or myths
that
> were flagrantly made up to<BR> suit a cultural bias in order to bring
> more ignorant<BR> humans to the "fold".<BR><BR> (all the
> better<BR> if they believe what they preach, it makes it
> easier<BR> for them to sleep)in<BR> order to retain and
> extend personal and<BR> institutional power. This is not to<BR>
> say that there are no benefits, since those common<BR>
> mythyologies help to<BR> create a 'public order' no matter what the
> standard.<BR> Are religious<BR> societies 'better' than
> secular societies?<BR><BR> Fuck, no!<BR><BR> How do<BR>
> ! we measure? These are<BR> topics worthy of millions of
> tomes, and indeed you<BR> know they are out there<BR>
> discussing this shit still, like a bunch of<BR> sophomores who have
> just<BR> dicovered 'philosophy'.<BR><BR> How dare they
> abuse us by discussing them?! State and<BR> religion should not mix,
> Point!<BR> <BR> But my dad, who was a doctor, was in
> a<BR> 'philosophical' mood one night, a<BR> little in his
> cups, and he related. "I watch people<BR> die and people
> born<BR> every day as a part of my job, and all I can say
> is,<BR> 'Where does the flame<BR> go when it goes out?'
> Does the flame have a soul?"<BR><BR> So, did he ever answer his
> question, or did he just<BR> ask?<BR><BR> He was not a
> religious<BR> man, though he tried to keep up appearances. On
> the<BR> other hand, he was<BR> 'moral' person w! ho
> enjoyed overpaying his taxes and<BR> never breaking a
> traffic<BR> law.<BR> <BR> So when we are
> approached by 'holy men' of any<BR> stripe, know you are
> being<BR> approached by the powers of darkness.<BR><BR> Do
> you really believe there is a Big Boogyman out<BR>
> there?!<BR><BR> This includes<BR> rabbis, priests,<BR>
> mullahs, and most medicine men. I put my faith in<BR> the
> scientific method and<BR> its self correcting process.<BR>
> <BR><BR> Man, I'd hate to be on the back end of a "self<BR>
> correcting process" inflicted on me by a source<BR> outside myself
(like
> doctors and lawyers and<BR> policemen) when I had resources available
to
> me that<BR> enabled me to kick metaphorical butt if I were to<BR>
> employ them.<BR><BR> What do we have to look forward to? The
> peace of<BR> the grave.<BR><BR> I'm sure it is! a
> relief!<BR><BR> Heaven is here<BR> on earth, make the best
> of it. People who identify<BR> with their 'religions'<BR>
> are essentially deciding which 'team' they want to<BR> play on.
> Imagine it as<BR> though all religions are just sports teams, and
> you<BR> are free to join or not.<BR> But if you put on the
> uniform, then you have to play<BR> for your side, and you<BR>
> have to follow the coach and the quarterback's rules<BR> or
> get thrown out for<BR> being a 'bad sport.'<BR> <BR>
> You've got to admit, it's better to play on a team in<BR> which you
like
> all the participants--it's hard to work<BR> together, otherwise. We
> Ghettoans (and I include<BR> myself therein reservedly, though I hung
> out in the<BR> Ghetto) may not comprise a religion, but we're<BR>
> certainly a group of human beings gathering together<BR> to speak
> as/what they will. So! mething Quakers<BR> did--the only "religion"
that
> I might ever have<BR> considered joining.<BR><BR> I like to
> think of religions as all saying essentially<BR> the same thing,
> therefore I don't have to belong to<BR> any one of them. As for
god(s),
> I doubt the existence<BR> of a "personal god" who counts the hairs on
my
> head or<BR> the sands in the ocean. Gods are created by man in<BR>
> their likeness. Beyond perhaps an intrinsic<BR> knowingness on a
> nanochronic level, the biological<BR> internet.<BR><BR>
> Religion and those who follow it are just like Roger<BR> says,
> tribal apes.<BR><BR> I don't follow religion, except to avoid it. On
> the<BR> other hand, I like to know all about it.<BR><BR>
> God<BR> bless Thorsten Veblen and Madalyn Murray O'Hair.<BR>
> <BR> I worked for her back in the seventies as circulation<BR>
> director for American Atheist. She fired me I think<BR> beca! use she
> suspected I was a Christian. I liked to<BR> hang out in the
> library.<BR><BR> pep<BR><BR>
> telegnostic<BR><BR> p.s. the "gnostic" says it all--you know you
> don't<BR> know, right?<BR> <BR> -----Original
> Message-----<BR> From:
> austin-ghetto-list-admin@pairlist.net<BR>
> [mailto:austin-ghetto-list-admin@pairlist.net]On<BR> Behalf Of
> Wayne Johnson<BR> Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 5:20 PM<BR>
> To: austin-ghetto-list@pairlist.net<BR> Subject: Re: let's not
> do nuance<BR> <BR> <BR> Oh, I wish I didn't feel
> compelled to write this. I<BR> know, just know, that I<BR>
> will surely regret it. But I just can't find any<BR> sane
> and<BR> non-Transcendental argument for the existence of a<BR>
> "soul". I really,<BR> really wish it were true and that we
> could all come<BR> back again, but my<BR> b! elief is that
> when the "biological" light goes<BR> out...it stays out.
> Finito!<BR> No mas!<BR> <BR> From my perspective,
> we have some tens of thousands<BR> of years of "wishful"<BR>
> thinking aided and abetted by a bunch of<BR> semi-literate,
> semi-criminals who<BR> wish to profit by spreading mystical and
> irrational<BR> beliefs. Did Arthur go<BR> to Avalon?
> Probably not, as much as I would like it<BR> to be so. Ain't
> going<BR> to see him again. Nor any other person what has<BR>
> kicked the "biological"<BR> bucket. Doornails is doornails and
> when you is<BR> gone, you is over.<BR> <BR> So.
> What do I have to look forward to? Not a damn<BR> thing. Is
> that<BR> existential or what?<BR> <BR> Cheers
> until then...."Happy Trails to You, until we<BR> meet
> again".<BR> <BR> wj<BR> ! <BR> -----
> Original Message -----<BR> From: "Pepi Plowman"
> <PEPSTOIL@YAHOO.COM><BR> To:
> <AUSTIN-GHETTO-LIST@PAIRLIST.NET><BR> Sent: Saturday, March 27,
> 2004 5:32 PM<BR> Subject: Re: let's try to do nuance<BR>
> <BR> <BR> <BR> --- Michael Eisenstadt
> <MICHAELE@ANDO.PAIR.COM><BR> wrote:<BR>
> Pepi,<BR> <BR> Thanks for writing at
> length about this.<BR> <BR> No, I don't
> speak it.<BR> <BR> In Hebrew school (to
> prepare for confirmation at<BR> 13<BR> for the
> sake of my religious grandmother who<BR> would<BR>
> have had a fit if I wasn't confirmed), we used<BR> to<BR>
> say<BR> Baruch ator, I don't know
> anymore.<BR> <BR> Baruch ator are th! e
> first 2 words of all the<BR> prayers.<BR>
> Actually we worked our way through quite a bit<BR> of<BR>
> Genesis reading it in the original which was my<BR>
> original<BR> introduction to the ENORMOUS charm
> of reading a<BR> foreign language.When I slowly worked my
> way<BR> through<BR> <BR> one
> of the books of the Iliad in the original<BR> many<BR>
> years<BR> later, I thought back to Miss Snow
> with the<BR> enormous<BR> <BR>
> boobs driving us like Gadarene swine through the<BR>
> beginning<BR> of the bible.<BR> <BR>
> Amusing visuals here!<BR> <BR>
> <BR> As for your and your sisters' previous
> lives,<BR> that<BR> ! ; sounds<BR>
> like hard work.<BR> <BR> Seems like it
> always is.<BR> <BR> <BR>
> Let me get this straight: the jews burnt in the<BR>
> ovens<BR> came back as the Plowman sisters (or some of
> the<BR> Plowman sisters); the Nazis who died came
> back<BR> as<BR> Israelis.<BR>
> <BR> I still come back to this simple question:
> if<BR> you<BR> and your<BR>
> sisters love all people all that much, how do<BR> you<BR>
> come<BR> to the conclusion that the Israelis
> are reborn<BR> Nazis?<BR> <BR>
> A few Israelis, perhaps. Certainly, not all.<BR> This is<BR>
> merely supposition, in any case, as we both know.<BR>
> But<BR!> I would say by observing the ones who manifest
> a<BR> similar persona with a similar agenda (except
> for<BR> the<BR> reversal of the victims), however you
> would<BR> describe a<BR> Nazi. Sharon, perhaps? Hey,
> for all we know,<BR> Arafat<BR> may have been a Jew
> in his past lifetime!<BR> <BR> <BR>
> You write:<BR> <BR> But
> may you not hate too much, it's bad for<BR> the<BR>
> soul<BR> (I know, you don't believe in its
> existence.<BR> Oh,<BR> well, so be
> it).<BR> <BR> === message truncated
> ===<BR><BR><BR><BR>
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