whatever passes for god reaches us in surprisingly diverse ways...
Frances Morey
austin-ghetto-list@pairlist.net
Mon Mar 29 14:14:15 2004
Wayne,
I agree with you that the proprietors of the church store can be extremely off putting. I recall the funeral service for Michael Eakin in Waco, it might have in 1978. The stage business of the Baptist preacher was to remove his wrist watch and elaborately place it up on the lectern to time his delivery. He said nothing for much too long, having no knowledge of the deceased to draw upon, except that he had died as a young man getting shot in a bad area of Houston. I remember that it included nothing nice or uplifting about Michael, in five hundred inconsequential words or more, and I was glad that I hadn't been raised Baptist. Church is supposed to be an artful, pleasant, non-threatening sanctuary with insense, music and uplifting homilys. It is for celebrating the seasons or holding funerals and other occasions. Otherwise it is a weekly pause in life for being respectful and quietly contemplative in a group milieu. The thought police ruined it railing about sin and evil. I suppose it makes for great theater, wailing around and promising hellfire and doom, but it is right down there on the level with wrestling. I also regret that they pulled the plug on the Latin.
Frances
--- On Mon 03/29, Wayne Johnson cadaobh@shentel.net wrote:
From: Wayne Johnson [mailto: cadaobh@shentel.net]
To: austin-ghetto-list@pairlist.net
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 08:04:26 -0500
Subject: Re: surprise! god is in each of us...
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>My problem is that most of my early Church
experience was filled with horrid white anglo saxon protestant hypocricy and
utter dismissal of other religions whilst insisting that Jesus should be the
half back on your football team. This drivel would stun a ground hog for
its imbecility but seemed to go over big in Georgetown in the Fifties. The
single person of deep religious faith that I knew personally and respected was
Rev. Heinsohn of the University Methodist Church on the Drag. I worked there as
a night-time custodian whilst a student at UT. He was a gentleman, a true
Biblical scholar and his sermons were absent of cliche or dumb harangues.
By any measure, a great person and a credit to our species.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>wj</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title="frances_morey@yahoo.com" href="mailto:frances_morey@yahoo.com">Frances
Morey</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title="austin-ghetto-list@pairlist.net" href="mailto:austin-ghetto-list@pairlist.net">austin-ghetto-list@pairlist.net</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, March 28, 2004 7:54
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: surprise! god is in each of
us...</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Wayne,</DIV>
<DIV>These incidences of kindness are multiplied thousands of times as church
members all over are moved to help their fellow humans. I've seen it in action
and even experienced some of it myself in my darkest moments. The church is
the Other place, away from home and the husstle 'n' bustle of the
marketplace, where people can be quite and contemplative in humility,
surrounded by peace and quiet or ethereal music, and participating
in the familiar and predictable process of the liturgy, if a Mass, or
listening to preachments alternating with the singing of hymns, if
they happen to be protestant. I always prefered the Catholic practice of
keeping the whole service to an hour, homily and all. That is merely
the excuse for being together, though. Perhaps god is really the human
matrix in which we immerse ourselves and the churches are places we are able
to find other humans who are capable and willing to express good
will--I believe that is so, anyway. My church experiences have
been as described and if not I certainly let them
hear about it. But that's another story.</DIV>
<DIV>Frances <BR><BR><B><I>Wayne Johnson
<cadaobh@shentel.net></I></B> wrote:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">I
just found out yesterday that a very dear friend of our in Reston
has<BR>contract ALS and it has already progessed to the point where he can
barely<BR>brush his teeth and can't clothe himself. He and his wife had
joined a<BR>local Unitarian church a couple of years ago and these good
people have<BR>taken it upon themselves to provide a world of kindness,
gentleness, love<BR>and direct physical and emotional assistance to him and
his wife. This<BR>includes visits, shopping trips with and without him, food
deliveries and<BR>compansionship.<BR><BR>To my old timey way of thinking,
this is what "churches" used to do: love<BR>people and be supportive of
those in need. Every so often it is good (for me<BR>in particular) to be
reminded that there are those who actually practice<BR>what their religion
suggests is "Christian" behavior. Of course, the<BR>Unitarians aren't
exactly boil! er-plate, orthodox, Holey-Rollers. I believe<BR>Ben Franklin
was a Unitarian and possibly G. Washington as well. Not<BR>exactly Bible
thumpers. Many of these congregations accept neo-pagan<BR>beliefs without
rancor. (Oddly, the only other church I have found with<BR>similar
sentiments was a (Scottish) Episcopal church in Campbell, CA.<BR>Campbell
being vurrry Scottish as a person and a clan.<BR><BR>Anyway. Have to say
sometimes the sysems works and works to the benefit of<BR>some who really,
really deserve it.<BR><BR>wj<BR>----- Original Message ----- <BR>From: "Pepi
Plowman" <PEPSTOIL@YAHOO.COM><BR>To:
<AUSTIN-GHETTO-LIST@PAIRLIST.NET><BR>Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 9:45
PM<BR>Subject: RE: let's not do nuance<BR><BR><BR> Wayne, Judy,
Tele,<BR><BR> I'm with you all the way on the first part. God,
what<BR> God? Which God? But allow me to elaborate further,<BR>
below...<BR> --- telebob <TELEBOB@SBCGLOBAL.NET>wrote:<BR>
Wayne-<BR> <BR> ! ; I think as you do, and thank you for
reminding us<BR> that most priests and<BR> factotems are
basically criminals who spread<BR> cultural myths<BR><BR>
totally. Myths that preceded that particular religion<BR> which the
priests and factotems accepted as truth and<BR> preached, or myths that
were flagrantly made up to<BR> suit a cultural bias in order to bring
more ignorant<BR> humans to the "fold".<BR><BR> (all the
better<BR> if they believe what they preach, it makes it
easier<BR> for them to sleep)in<BR> order to retain and
extend personal and<BR> institutional power. This is not to<BR>
say that there are no benefits, since those common<BR>
mythyologies help to<BR> create a 'public order' no matter what the
standard.<BR> Are religious<BR> societies 'better' than
secular societies?<BR><BR> Fuck, no!<BR><BR> How do<BR>
! we measure? These are<BR> topics worthy of millions of
tomes, and indeed you<BR> know they are out there<BR>
discussing this shit still, like a bunch of<BR> sophomores who have
just<BR> dicovered 'philosophy'.<BR><BR> How dare they
abuse us by discussing them?! State and<BR> religion should not mix,
Point!<BR> <BR> But my dad, who was a doctor, was in
a<BR> 'philosophical' mood one night, a<BR> little in his
cups, and he related. "I watch people<BR> die and people
born<BR> every day as a part of my job, and all I can say
is,<BR> 'Where does the flame<BR> go when it goes out?'
Does the flame have a soul?"<BR><BR> So, did he ever answer his
question, or did he just<BR> ask?<BR><BR> He was not a
religious<BR> man, though he tried to keep up appearances. On
the<BR> other hand, he was<BR> 'moral' person w! ho
enjoyed overpaying his taxes and<BR> never breaking a
traffic<BR> law.<BR> <BR> So when we are
approached by 'holy men' of any<BR> stripe, know you are
being<BR> approached by the powers of darkness.<BR><BR> Do
you really believe there is a Big Boogyman out<BR>
there?!<BR><BR> This includes<BR> rabbis, priests,<BR>
mullahs, and most medicine men. I put my faith in<BR> the
scientific method and<BR> its self correcting process.<BR>
<BR><BR> Man, I'd hate to be on the back end of a "self<BR>
correcting process" inflicted on me by a source<BR> outside myself (like
doctors and lawyers and<BR> policemen) when I had resources available to
me that<BR> enabled me to kick metaphorical butt if I were to<BR>
employ them.<BR><BR> What do we have to look forward to? The
peace of<BR> the grave.<BR><BR> I'm sure it is! a
relief!<BR><BR> Heaven is here<BR> on earth, make the best
of it. People who identify<BR> with their 'religions'<BR>
are essentially deciding which 'team' they want to<BR> play on.
Imagine it as<BR> though all religions are just sports teams, and
you<BR> are free to join or not.<BR> But if you put on the
uniform, then you have to play<BR> for your side, and you<BR>
have to follow the coach and the quarterback's rules<BR> or
get thrown out for<BR> being a 'bad sport.'<BR> <BR>
You've got to admit, it's better to play on a team in<BR> which you like
all the participants--it's hard to work<BR> together, otherwise. We
Ghettoans (and I include<BR> myself therein reservedly, though I hung
out in the<BR> Ghetto) may not comprise a religion, but we're<BR>
certainly a group of human beings gathering together<BR> to speak
as/what they will. So! mething Quakers<BR> did--the only "religion" that
I might ever have<BR> considered joining.<BR><BR> I like to
think of religions as all saying essentially<BR> the same thing,
therefore I don't have to belong to<BR> any one of them. As for god(s),
I doubt the existence<BR> of a "personal god" who counts the hairs on my
head or<BR> the sands in the ocean. Gods are created by man in<BR>
their likeness. Beyond perhaps an intrinsic<BR> knowingness on a
nanochronic level, the biological<BR> internet.<BR><BR>
Religion and those who follow it are just like Roger<BR> says,
tribal apes.<BR><BR> I don't follow religion, except to avoid it. On
the<BR> other hand, I like to know all about it.<BR><BR>
God<BR> bless Thorsten Veblen and Madalyn Murray O'Hair.<BR>
<BR> I worked for her back in the seventies as circulation<BR>
director for American Atheist. She fired me I think<BR> beca! use she
suspected I was a Christian. I liked to<BR> hang out in the
library.<BR><BR> pep<BR><BR>
telegnostic<BR><BR> p.s. the "gnostic" says it all--you know you
don't<BR> know, right?<BR> <BR> -----Original
Message-----<BR> From:
austin-ghetto-list-admin@pairlist.net<BR>
[mailto:austin-ghetto-list-admin@pairlist.net]On<BR> Behalf Of
Wayne Johnson<BR> Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 5:20 PM<BR>
To: austin-ghetto-list@pairlist.net<BR> Subject: Re: let's not
do nuance<BR> <BR> <BR> Oh, I wish I didn't feel
compelled to write this. I<BR> know, just know, that I<BR>
will surely regret it. But I just can't find any<BR> sane
and<BR> non-Transcendental argument for the existence of a<BR>
"soul". I really,<BR> really wish it were true and that we
could all come<BR> back again, but my<BR> b! elief is that
when the "biological" light goes<BR> out...it stays out.
Finito!<BR> No mas!<BR> <BR> From my perspective,
we have some tens of thousands<BR> of years of "wishful"<BR>
thinking aided and abetted by a bunch of<BR> semi-literate,
semi-criminals who<BR> wish to profit by spreading mystical and
irrational<BR> beliefs. Did Arthur go<BR> to Avalon?
Probably not, as much as I would like it<BR> to be so. Ain't
going<BR> to see him again. Nor any other person what has<BR>
kicked the "biological"<BR> bucket. Doornails is doornails and
when you is<BR> gone, you is over.<BR> <BR> So.
What do I have to look forward to? Not a damn<BR> thing. Is
that<BR> existential or what?<BR> <BR> Cheers
until then...."Happy Trails to You, until we<BR> meet
again".<BR> <BR> wj<BR> ! <BR> -----
Original Message -----<BR> From: "Pepi Plowman"
<PEPSTOIL@YAHOO.COM><BR> To:
<AUSTIN-GHETTO-LIST@PAIRLIST.NET><BR> Sent: Saturday, March 27,
2004 5:32 PM<BR> Subject: Re: let's try to do nuance<BR>
<BR> <BR> <BR> --- Michael Eisenstadt
<MICHAELE@ANDO.PAIR.COM><BR> wrote:<BR>
Pepi,<BR> <BR> Thanks for writing at
length about this.<BR> <BR> No, I don't
speak it.<BR> <BR> In Hebrew school (to
prepare for confirmation at<BR> 13<BR> for the
sake of my religious grandmother who<BR> would<BR>
have had a fit if I wasn't confirmed), we used<BR> to<BR>
say<BR> Baruch ator, I don't know
anymore.<BR> <BR> Baruch ator are th! e
first 2 words of all the<BR> prayers.<BR>
Actually we worked our way through quite a bit<BR> of<BR>
Genesis reading it in the original which was my<BR>
original<BR> introduction to the ENORMOUS charm
of reading a<BR> foreign language.When I slowly worked my
way<BR> through<BR> <BR> one
of the books of the Iliad in the original<BR> many<BR>
years<BR> later, I thought back to Miss Snow
with the<BR> enormous<BR> <BR>
boobs driving us like Gadarene swine through the<BR>
beginning<BR> of the bible.<BR> <BR>
Amusing visuals here!<BR> <BR>
<BR> As for your and your sisters' previous
lives,<BR> that<BR> ! ; sounds<BR>
like hard work.<BR> <BR> Seems like it
always is.<BR> <BR> <BR>
Let me get this straight: the jews burnt in the<BR>
ovens<BR> came back as the Plowman sisters (or some of
the<BR> Plowman sisters); the Nazis who died came
back<BR> as<BR> Israelis.<BR>
<BR> I still come back to this simple question:
if<BR> you<BR> and your<BR>
sisters love all people all that much, how do<BR> you<BR>
come<BR> to the conclusion that the Israelis
are reborn<BR> Nazis?<BR> <BR>
A few Israelis, perhaps. Certainly, not all.<BR> This is<BR>
merely supposition, in any case, as we both know.<BR>
But<BR!> I would say by observing the ones who manifest
a<BR> similar persona with a similar agenda (except
for<BR> the<BR> reversal of the victims), however you
would<BR> describe a<BR> Nazi. Sharon, perhaps? Hey,
for all we know,<BR> Arafat<BR> may have been a Jew
in his past lifetime!<BR> <BR> <BR>
You write:<BR> <BR> But
may you not hate too much, it's bad for<BR> the<BR>
soul<BR> (I know, you don't believe in its
existence.<BR> Oh,<BR> well, so be
it).<BR> <BR> === message truncated
===<BR><BR><BR><BR>
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