let's not diss one another
Wayne Johnson
austin-ghetto-list@pairlist.net
Sun Mar 28 14:48:03 2004
Gerry, Gerry, Gerry, old son, don't be such a knee-jerk respondant. Our
forum here is supposed to be just that, a means of sharing and expressing
ideas. I think it is really unfair and unkind of you to characterize me as
some stubborn, shallow half-wit. I will not get into a pissing contest with
your over my beliefs. Nor try to impress with any other credential. As I
prefaced my comments, I thought I might regret saying something as I
said...revealing my personal doubts...to this list. Your response, sadly,
is a good example of my earlier concern.
Some among us might be concerned about anyone who spends as much time as you
do in the pursuit of Astrological meanings. Don't you think that you should
consider for a moment the vulnerability of your particular "house"...pun
intended.
There are no certainities. What we call "reality" may be a great,
encompassing dream which our "world mind" shares among us. (Well, except
for the Bushniks, who can't dream because they have no imagination
whatsoever and only think with the glands between their fat little legs.)
What in the earlier text suggested that Houdini was any kind of spiritual
leader? He was a magician and a highly professional one who especially
disliked "charlatans", particularly those with psuedo-religious trappings
who preyed upon the weak of mind and will. He was a showman, granted, but
nothing I have read about him suggested that he was either stupid or given
to making pronouncements about theology or metaphysics. Perhaps I am wrong.
On the other hand, I really do disagree with your semi-Buddhist idea of
"turning off the intellect". This path leads too many people to mental
*and* spiritual laziness. Makes it easy for those attracted to Charismatic
Leaders to push their fragile life-buttons and makes them uncritical of
Institutionalized Fuck Overs by Large Churchs and Their Whores, etc. etc.
Trust that after reading Tao-ist, Buddhist, Christian, Muslim and especially
Sufic texts that I will some how or the other be able to distinguish a
"still mind" from either a Monk-ish or monkey-ish one.
Hope you are well. I hope we are still friends and that we can enjoy our
disagreements without rancor or excess huffing and puffing. Rational people
may disagree, right?
Cheers.
wayne
btw. You will, no doubt, be equally horrified to learn that I have just
purchased (from India) a new valve trombone and am trying to get my
embouchure (sp?) back to what ever degree that is possible at this late
date. Want to play some Billy Strayhorn and Cole Porter.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gerry Storm" <mesmo@gilanet.com>
To: <austin-ghetto-list@pairlist.net>
Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2004 11:58 AM
Subject: Re: let's not do nuance
> Well, Bubba, ol' pal, I've been sitting and reading your series of
religion
> essays and resisting the temptation to reply since I basically disagree
with
> you on almost every point...you and your syncophant the capitalist candle
> maker and late night alcho-guru. And, I might add that I agree with Pepi
on
> almost every aspect. Your lack of depth and understanding, your stubborn,
> backward spins on religion and church and the afterlife and spirituality
in
> general are not consistent with your typically informed observations
(which
> I generally respect). You are out of step, ignoring the beat.
>
> I recall your previous posts about the Zen Center in NorCal which you
> attended in the 70's. I supposed that this was a positive experience for
you
> and that you absorbed some basic Buddhism and the ability to meditate. No?
> You don't believe there is a way to greater understanding of the mysteries
> of the universe? Or you have given up the effort because for some reason
you
> were not satisfied with the results? You don't believe there are teachers
> out there who can help you progress? They are all charlatans? The Zen
> Masters are con artists? Harry Houdini is your idea of a spiritual leader?
> Come now, Bubba. Sounds to me like you have the blinders on. I know that
> Saturn is transiting through your sign and may have you in such a state of
> denial and percieved limitation that you are allowing your depression to
> rule. Fight against it. It will soon pass. Don't let it bury you in
> negativism.
>
> Death is death, younger or older makes little difference. One perspective
is
> that those who die young are the most fortunate since they are spared the
> pain of aging and suffering. Many see death as the ultimate release, a
time
> of celebration rather than a morbid downer of dark feelings. Once again,
it
> is your choice. Cry over it or accept it and move on. When it's over it's
> over. It is not the dead you suffer over, it is your own sorry ass,
pitying
> yourself because you have to change to compensate for the "loss". Change
and
> loss are normal, not an aberration.
>
> The spirit guides will help you if you ask them, not at all complicated.
If
> you don't give it a good try, they don't seem to particularly give a damn.
I
> prefer to believe that we can progress in each life cycle and the worst we
> can do is blow off the opportunity to do so behind some kind of negative,
> fear based arrogance, some pseudo-intellectual BS.
>
> May I suggest that you move beyond the headlines and the current events
and
> ponder the passing of the natural cycles. Spirituality is not an
> intellectual exercise, remember? By turning off the intellect you allow
the
> cognitive to rise. Rationality is often the greatest barrier to truth. It
> is spring and the life cycle is all around us, so much being born, so much
> life! Join in!
>
> G
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Wayne Johnson <cadaobh@shentel.net>
> To: <austin-ghetto-list@pairlist.net>
> Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2004 7:20 AM
> Subject: Re: let's not do nuance
>
>
> > I certainly hope so. I very much believe in the respecting the dead. I
> > don't step on graves and I when I am in graveyards taking photographs I
> try
> > to be ultra careful and ultra respectful. I do medidate in these times
> on
> > the possible lives of the people whose names and photographs I see
there.
> > Death is sad and sadder still for those who die young. Incidentally, I
> > extend this to notion to not eating lamb and veal.
> >
> > Is there a human "spirit" and can it be "enhanced" or worse, crushed? I
> > don't know. Sometimes I read about or see examples of human love,
courage
> > and creativity that make me weep for joy. Othertimes, well, you know
the
> > "other times" as well as I. We may be starting a period of "darkness"
> > unsurpassed in a thousand years, as in (feudal) corporate-socialism (the
> > ultimate facist state) which will endeavor to create two distinct
classes:
> > lords and serfs. One with education and all the money, the other with
> dull
> > minds, strongs backs and cheap body parts.
> >
> > Harry Houdini, who was nothing if not invested with curiousity about the
> > after life, supposedly told his wife that if there was a "way" to come
> back,
> > he would. There is no account of his success from this, his final
> > disappearing act.
> >
> > Gee I hope there is some other, transcendental experience, but I fear it
> is
> > just that, wishful thinking.
> >
> > wj
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Monty/Judy" <m.herr@comcast.net>
> > To: <austin-ghetto-list@pairlist.net>
> > Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 10:55 PM
> > Subject: RE: let's not do nuance
> >
> >
> > > But, to the extent that our families and friends remember us and tell
> the
> > > stories, our spirits are immortal.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: austin-ghetto-list-admin@pairlist.net
> > > [mailto:austin-ghetto-list-admin@pairlist.net] On Behalf Of telebob
> > > Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 4:07 PM
> > > To: austin-ghetto-list@pairlist.net
> > > Subject: RE: let's not do nuance
> > >
> > > Wayne-
> > >
> > > I think as you do, and thank you for reminding us that most priests
and
> > > factotems are basically criminals who spread cultural myths (all the
> > better
> > > if they believe what they preach, it makes it easier for them to
> sleep)in
> > > order to retain and extend personal and institutional power. This is
> not
> > > to
> > > say that there are no benefits, since those common mythyologies help
to
> > > create a 'public order' no matter what the standard. Are religious
> > > societies 'better' than secular societies? How do we measure? These
> are
> > > topics worthy of millions of tomes, and indeed you know they are out
> there
> > > discussing this shit still, like a bunch of sophomores who have just
> > > dicovered 'philosophy'.
> > >
> > > But my dad, who was a doctor, was in a 'philosophical' mood one night,
a
> > > little in his cups, and he related. "I watch people die and people
born
> > > every day as a part of my job, and all I can say is, 'Where does the
> flame
> > > go when it goes out?' Does the flame have a soul?" He was not a
> religious
> > > man, though he tried to keep up appearances. On the other hand, he was
> > > 'moral' person who enjoyed overpaying his taxes and never breaking a
> > > traffic
> > > law.
> > >
> > > So when we are approached by 'holy men' of any stripe, know you are
> being
> > > approached by the powers of darkness. This includes rabbis, priests,
> > > mullahs, and most medicine men. I put my faith in the scientific
method
> > > and
> > > its self correcting process.
> > >
> > > What do we have to look forward to? The peace of the grave. Heaven
is
> > > here
> > > on earth, make the best of it. People who identify with their
> 'religions'
> > > are essentially deciding which 'team' they want to play on. Imagine
it
> as
> > > though all religions are just sports teams, and you are free to join
or
> > > not.
> > > But if you put on the uniform, then you have to play for your side,
and
> > you
> > > have to follow the coach and the quarterback's rules or get thrown out
> for
> > > being a 'bad sport.'
> > >
> > > Religion and those who follow it are just like Roger says, tribal
apes.
> > > God
> > > bless Thorsten Veblen and Madalyn Murray O'Hair.
> > >
> > > telegnostic
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: austin-ghetto-list-admin@pairlist.net
> > > [mailto:austin-ghetto-list-admin@pairlist.net]On Behalf Of Wayne
Johnson
> > > Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 5:20 PM
> > > To: austin-ghetto-list@pairlist.net
> > > Subject: Re: let's not do nuance
> > >
> > >
> > > Oh, I wish I didn't feel compelled to write this. I know, just know,
> that
> > > I
> > > will surely regret it. But I just can't find any sane and
> > > non-Transcendental argument for the existence of a "soul". I really,
> > > really wish it were true and that we could all come back again, but my
> > > belief is that when the "biological" light goes out...it stays out.
> > > Finito!
> > > No mas!
> > >
> > > >From my perspective, we have some tens of thousands of years of
> "wishful"
> > > thinking aided and abetted by a bunch of semi-literate, semi-criminals
> who
> > > wish to profit by spreading mystical and irrational beliefs. Did
Arthur
> > go
> > > to Avalon? Probably not, as much as I would like it to be so. Ain't
> going
> > > to see him again. Nor any other person what has kicked the
"biological"
> > > bucket. Doornails is doornails and when you is gone, you is over.
> > >
> > > So. What do I have to look forward to? Not a damn thing. Is that
> > > existential or what?
> > >
> > > Cheers until then...."Happy Trails to You, until we meet again".
> > >
> > > wj
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Pepi Plowman" <pepstoil@yahoo.com>
> > > To: <austin-ghetto-list@pairlist.net>
> > > Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 5:32 PM
> > > Subject: Re: let's try to do nuance
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > --- Michael Eisenstadt <michaele@ando.pair.com> wrote:
> > > > > Pepi,
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks for writing at length about this.
> > > > >
> > > > > No, I don't speak it.
> > > > >
> > > > > In Hebrew school (to prepare for confirmation at 13
> > > > > for the sake of my religious grandmother who would
> > > > > have had a fit if I wasn't confirmed), we used to
> > > > > say
> > > > > Baruch ator, I don't know anymore.
> > > > >
> > > > > Baruch ator are the first 2 words of all the
> > > > > prayers.
> > > > > Actually we worked our way through quite a bit of
> > > > > Genesis reading it in the original which was my
> > > > > original
> > > > > introduction to the ENORMOUS charm of reading a
> > > > > foreign language.When I slowly worked my way through
> > > > >
> > > > > one of the books of the Iliad in the original many
> > > > > years
> > > > > later, I thought back to Miss Snow with the enormous
> > > > >
> > > > > boobs driving us like Gadarene swine through the
> > > > > beginning
> > > > > of the bible.
> > > >
> > > > Amusing visuals here!
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > As for your and your sisters' previous lives, that
> > > > > sounds
> > > > > like hard work.
> > > >
> > > > Seems like it always is.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Let me get this straight: the jews burnt in the
> > > > > ovens
> > > > > came back as the Plowman sisters (or some of the
> > > > > Plowman sisters); the Nazis who died came back as
> > > > > Israelis.
> > > > >
> > > > > I still come back to this simple question: if you
> > > > > and your
> > > > > sisters love all people all that much, how do you
> > > > > come
> > > > > to the conclusion that the Israelis are reborn
> > > > > Nazis?
> > > >
> > > > A few Israelis, perhaps. Certainly, not all. This is
> > > > merely supposition, in any case, as we both know. But
> > > > I would say by observing the ones who manifest a
> > > > similar persona with a similar agenda (except for the
> > > > reversal of the victims), however you would describe a
> > > > Nazi. Sharon, perhaps? Hey, for all we know, Arafat
> > > > may have been a Jew in his past lifetime!
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > You write:
> > > > >
> > > > > > But may you not hate too much, it's bad for the
> > > > > soul
> > > > > > (I know, you don't believe in its existence. Oh,
> > > > > > well, so be it).
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm not the hater. I was taking exception to other
> > > > > folks'
> > > > > hatred. Is that allowed in your scheme of things?
> > > >
> > > > You were taking exception to others with your
> > > > assumption that they hated--sometimes an incorrect
> > > > one. And certainly, we've already been here...you're
> > > > allowed to be as incorrect as you like, and I'm
> > > > allowed to perceive you that way, whether you see it
> > > > that way or not.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > And yes, it is totally bad for the soul. I believe
> > > > > in the
> > > > > existence of the soul, I just don't believe in its
> > > > > survival
> > > > > after death. That's for cowards who don't want to
> > > > > accept that they must die and stay dead.
> > > >
> > > > Death is a part of Life--they're not opposites--our
> > > > energies continue into perpetuity. Any scientist will
> > > > tell you that there is no energy on earth that can be
> > > > made to disappear completely--it merely transforms
> > > > into something else.
> > > >
> > > > It has nothing to do with being a coward or not. If
> > > > one leaves one's body and is awake, as everyone does
> > > > when sleeping, it's enough proof for me that there is
> > > > a soul. You're crossing a room. No, you're floating
> > > > across the room. You look down at your body. No
> > > > body. A light the color of a Peace Rose. Is that
> > > > Life?
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > And I aint got no agenda.
> > > >
> > > > Well, good, I'm glad to hear that!
> > > >
> > > > If you or others want to
> > > > > believe in up to 5 impossible things before
> > > > > breakfast
> > > > > like the Red Queen in Alice in Wonderland, hey! be
> > > > > my guest!
> > > > >
> > > > Thanks, my friend, for taking a different tone with
> > > > me.
> > > >
> > > > Best to you,
> > > >
> > > > Pepi
> > > > > Best,
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > >
> > > > > P.S. When it comes to learning foreign languages,
> > > > > unless
> > > > > one is a very talented linguini, you hafta choose
> > > > > which
> > > > > one or two or three is it is worth learning in terms
> > > > > of
> > > > > what's written in said languages. Having been an
> > > > > Asian monk
> > > > > in a previous life, have you learnt or remembered
> > > > > how to
> > > > > speak or read Asian monk books? Or is that
> > > > > considered
> > > > > unnecessary.
> > > > >
> > > > Mostly, as I understand it, a veil drops when people
> > > > are born, hiding past lives from them. Some people
> > > > have bleedthroughs, like me and my sisters. I have
> > > > the ability (and so do my sisters) to learn any
> > > > language on earth, if we were to spend time in that
> > > > country. I've had Chinese friends and learned a few
> > > > words from them, but I've never been immersed in the
> > > > language; I've taken a couple of semesters of
> > > > Japanese, have a great accent and that is all--I loved
> > > > writing the kanji; the same could be said for German,
> > > > except I took it in high school for two years and
> > > > never opened the book (I thought it an ugly language);
> > > > I speak and write Spanish and French; defend myself in
> > > > Italian; have translated Portuguese; took three years
> > > > of Latin (but never bothered to study, so can't say I
> > > > really know it); can understand just about any Latin-
> > > > based language when spoken to me. My sister speaks
> > > > and writes really GOOD Spanish, Italian, French and
> > > > German; speaks Hebrew and some Arabic; wants to learn
> > > > Russian. I want to learn Chinese. Life isn't long
> > > > enough to learn every language or to remember every
> > > > past life.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
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> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > __________________________________
> > > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > > Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
> > > > http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
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